questions about hoss' style

[siegfriedandroy]

i read the hoss thread in high stakes the other day, and am very curious about his style. just posted the following on stox's site, and thought i'd post it here as well since there is so much more traffic here, and good minds as well:

"just read an interesting thread on 2plus2 about this player, who is apparently thought of as one of the best around. they described him as a 46% wtsd, said that he will basically take any pair to showdown (even when clearly beaten), and 3 bet super liberally from button or blinds w/ basically any 2. how can this be the basic strategy of one of the best players online!!!???

i really dont understand, and am posting this especially since my wtsd has never been above the mid thirties, and used to be right around 30 exactly. yet it seems many good players have wtsd's closer to 40. can anyone shed some light on how such a style can be so effective, and what separates such good players from your garden variety maniacs (who seem to play a similar strategy)? if this is optimum (hoss said he learned the style from studying chen's 'mathematics of poker'), i would love to learn it. ive been reading the first few chapters, and havent really learned anything concrete that i can apply at the tables (as opposed to stox's book , from which i have alreadly learned a ton of good practical stuff- btw, stox and zo, very good book so far- i see so far as quite superior to any past two plus two books on limit, and not just b/c it's geared toward short games).

i would love to hear from stox (or anyone else with sufficient knowledge) what their take is on hoss' style. obviously, if he is stealing constantly w/ any 2 and often calling down w/ any pair for a 46% wtsd, this is a lot different from how your typical 'good' player plays. how would you compare such incessant stealing w/ the recommendations in stox's book, which appear to be the result of careful and extensive research and study? and as for calling down (seemingly mindlessly) w/ any pair, how can this work? fwiw, i just played 2000 hands trying to play similarly, with 41/30 stats and wtsd of 40, which is very high for me (won 51). but even here, i felt that i often calling down hopelessly against players who i have pretty good reads on and have played thousands of hands against. all of these times i lost, and i dont see the point in calling if you know for sure you are beaten- can there really be some type of metagame factor going on then makes it correct to call when your expectation on the call is pretty close -1 big bet? on the other side, i did win a couple surprising ones when calling down against unknowns."

would love to hear some well thought responses on specifically why and how a 46% wtsd, w/ super loose stealing standards, and (seemingly) mindless calldowns could constitute the strategy framework of one of the best in the game. also, according to my good buddy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] victor, there are some very good players he knows of with close to 50% wtsd stats. what is the best way for nits like me (around 35ish) to profitably increase wtsd?

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

One thing to think about is that how liberally you are calling down is just one aspect of where your WTSD% winds up. The other element is how often your opponents are calling *you* down. Someone who plays aggressively will tend to see a lot of showdowns both because he's building big pots (meaning that all players involved have more incentive to see a showdown) and because of table image issues above and beyond this.

BTW, I believe that in today's game textures there is some premium in developing an image as someone who won't fold, but of course you need to know when your opponents are adjusting to you and be capable of downshifting and making some folds.

[Bluffman]

as the official president of the Hoss_TBF fan club, i have been authorized by the hoss to answer all your questions.

hoss is a master of holding grudges. if he doesn't like you, he will try to humiliate you every hand by calling you down with Q high, pair of deuces, etc etc and so on.

if he thinks you are good, he will occasionally fold a pair but he won't like it, and it usually puts him in a bad mood and will get your name on his 'list'. If your name gets on the list thrice, it goes in his book, and you DON'T want to get in the book.

a good strategy to counter Hoss' strategy is to flop top pairs a lot. one time i flopped top pair against him about 15 hands in a row, and won over 35 bbs against him.

a good way to increase wtsd is to see every river, and call every river bet. using this strategy, it is possible to have a 100% wtsd.

cheers.

[siegfriedandroy]

thank you very much!!

[kahntrutahn]

Even true SD monkey's dont SD 46%, and 50 is spew. I'll have to check my DB...

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing to think about is that how liberally you are calling down is just one aspect of where your WTSD% winds up. The other element is how often your opponents are calling *you* down. Someone who plays aggressively will tend to see a lot of showdowns both because he's building big pots (meaning that all players involved have more incentive to see a showdown) and because of table image issues above and beyond this.

BTW, I believe that in today's game textures there is some premium in developing an image as someone who won't fold, but of course you need to know when your opponents are adjusting to you and be capable of downshifting and making some folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, these seem to be valid points. But 46%!!?? Come on!! Also curious if he (or other top high stakes players) makes a ton of plays (pure bluffs, random wild c'r riv bluffs, etc, etc) or if he generally seems 'solid'. anyone know?

[siegfriedandroy]

by the way- what does it take to become a member of the club?? im sure i could not afford it now, but maybe at some point...

[Bluffman]

admission to the hoss_TBF fan club doesn't have a fixed price. all you have to do is give him 200 hands of HU action at 200-400+. lucky for me, I ran hot and took $35K off him.

also, i've been instructed by Hoss to give you a little insight about his river decisions.

When facing a river bet, this is what Hoss does to make his decision:

If he can name off 2 or more hands he beats within 5 seconds, he calls.
If he can name off 5 or more within 5 seconds, he raises and calls a 3 bet.
Lastly, if he can name 10 or more within 5 seconds, he raises, and caps facing a threebet.

hope this helps.

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
admission to the hoss_TBF fan club doesn't have a fixed price. all you have to do is give him 200 hands of HU action at 200-400+. lucky for me, I ran hot and took $35K off him.

also, i've been instructed by Hoss to give you a little insight about his river decisions.

When facing a river bet, this is what Hoss does to make his decision:

If he can name off 2 or more hands he beats within 5 seconds, he calls.
If he can name off 5 or more within 5 seconds, he raises and calls a 3 bet.
Lastly, if he can name 10 or more within 5 seconds, he raises, and caps facing a threebet.

hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

dam poker is easy!! i have 22 on an AJ8 board (capped by villain preflop). I make a sick river c'r raise unimproved (two paints come on the big streets). The idiot threes me, and i then frantically contemplate 33-77 (since villain is a maniac) along w/ five suited low-mid connectors he could easily have. look at my watch and quickly cap it up before the 5 count!! optimal play!

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
If he can name off 2 or more hands he beats within 5 seconds, he calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

POKERSTARS GAME #7508555932: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($200/$400) - 2006/12/19 - 02:41:41 (ET)
Table 'Vera' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: PapaWarbucks ($26233 in chips)
Seat 3: cktn7 ($26717 in chips)
Seat 4: 62offsuit ($8771 in chips)
Seat 5: Hoss_TBF ($17623 in chips)
62offsuit: posts small blind $100
Hoss_TBF: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PapaWarbucks [Kd Kc]
PapaWarbucks: raises $200 to $400
cktn7: folds
62offsuit: folds
Hoss_TBF: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [Jd 5s 8d]
Hoss_TBF: checks
PapaWarbucks: bets $200
Hoss_TBF: raises $200 to $400
PapaWarbucks: raises $200 to $600
Hoss_TBF: calls $200
*** TURN *** [Jd 5s 8d] [Qh]
Hoss_TBF: checks
PapaWarbucks: bets $400
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** RIVER *** [Jd 5s 8d Qh] [6d]
Hoss_TBF: checks
PapaWarbucks: bets $400
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PapaWarbucks: shows [Kd Kc] (a pair of Kings)
Hoss_TBF: mucks hand
PapaWarbucks collected $3695 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3700 | Rake $5
Board [Jd 5s 8d Qh 6d]
Seat 2: PapaWarbucks showed [Kd Kc] and won ($3695) with a pair of Kings
Seat 3: cktn7 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: 62offsuit (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Hoss_TBF (big blind) mucked [4c 8s]


POKERSTARS GAME #9128514253: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($200/$400) - 2007/03/28 - 07:12:36 (ET)
Table 'Minerva' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: parliament ($26165 in chips)
Seat 2: Money800 ($7847 in chips)
Seat 3: Hoss_TBF ($20850 in chips)
Seat 4: PapaWarbucks ($30508 in chips)
Seat 5: patrikskjold ($15698 in chips)
Money800: posts small blind $100
Hoss_TBF: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PapaWarbucks [Ts Ks]
PapaWarbucks: raises $200 to $400
patrikskjold: folds
parliament: folds
Money800: calls $300
Hoss_TBF: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [Tc Td 9h]
Money800: checks
Hoss_TBF: checks
PapaWarbucks: bets $200
Money800: folds
Hoss_TBF: raises $200 to $400
PapaWarbucks: raises $200 to $600
Hoss_TBF: raises $200 to $800
Betting is capped
PapaWarbucks: calls $200
*** TURN *** [Tc Td 9h] [8c]
Hoss_TBF: bets $400
PapaWarbucks: raises $400 to $800
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** RIVER *** [Tc Td 9h 8c] [Kd]
Hoss_TBF: checks
PapaWarbucks: bets $400
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PapaWarbucks: shows [Ts Ks] (a full house, Tens full of Kings)
Hoss_TBF: mucks hand
PapaWarbucks collected $5195 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5200 | Rake $5
Board [Tc Td 9h 8c Kd]
Seat 1: parliament (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Money800 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Hoss_TBF (big blind) mucked [As Ad]
Seat 4: PapaWarbucks showed [Ts Ks] and won ($5195) with a full house, Tens full of Kings
Seat 5: patrikskjold folded before Flop (didn't bet)


POKERSTARS GAME #7193733822: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($200/$400) - 2006/11/27 - 01:13:41 (ET)
Table 'Mimosa II' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: PapaWarbucks ($27230 in chips)
Seat 2: runyouover ($3595 in chips)
Seat 3: Hoss_TBF ($20386 in chips)
Seat 4: obi---one ($6050 in chips)
Seat 5: Brageous ($10345 in chips)
Seat 6: McSketch ($11255 in chips)
runyouover: posts small blind $100
Hoss_TBF: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PapaWarbucks [Ah 3d]
obi---one: folds
Brageous: folds
McSketch: folds
PapaWarbucks: raises $200 to $400
runyouover: folds
Hoss_TBF: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [3c 9d Ad]
Hoss_TBF: checks
PapaWarbucks: bets $200
Hoss_TBF: raises $200 to $400
PapaWarbucks: calls $200
*** TURN *** [3c 9d Ad] [Jh]
Hoss_TBF: bets $400
PapaWarbucks: raises $400 to $800
Hoss_TBF: raises $400 to $1200
PapaWarbucks: raises $400 to $1600
Betting is capped
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** RIVER *** [3c 9d Ad Jh] [2c]
Hoss_TBF: checks
PapaWarbucks: bets $400
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PapaWarbucks: shows [Ah 3d] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
Hoss_TBF: mucks hand
PapaWarbucks collected $5695 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5700 | Rake $5
Board [3c 9d Ad Jh 2c]
Seat 1: PapaWarbucks (button) showed [Ah 3d] and won ($5695) with two pair, Aces and Threes
Seat 2: runyouover (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Hoss_TBF (big blind) mucked [Ks As]
Seat 4: obi---one folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Brageous folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: McSketch folded before Flop (didn't bet)


POKERSTARS GAME #9389048262: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($200/$400) - 2007/04/12 - 19:03:14 (ET)
Table 'Alma' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: chickenlittl ($13508 in chips)
Seat 3: Quackers ($5600 in chips)
Seat 5: Hoss_TBF ($15250 in chips)
Seat 6: PapaWarbucks ($18669 in chips)
chickenlittl: posts small blind $100
Quackers: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PapaWarbucks [6h Ah]
Hoss_TBF: raises $200 to $400
PapaWarbucks: raises $200 to $600
chickenlittl: folds
Quackers: folds
Hoss_TBF: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [6c 2d 6s]
Hoss_TBF: checks
PapaWarbucks: bets $200
Hoss_TBF: calls $200
*** TURN *** [6c 2d 6s] [As]
Hoss_TBF: checks
PapaWarbucks: bets $400
Hoss_TBF: raises $400 to $800
PapaWarbucks: raises $400 to $1200
Hoss_TBF: raises $400 to $1600
Betting is capped
PapaWarbucks: calls $400
*** RIVER *** [6c 2d 6s As] [9c]
Hoss_TBF: bets $400
PapaWarbucks: raises $400 to $800
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PapaWarbucks: shows [6h Ah] (a full house, Sixes full of Aces)
Hoss_TBF: mucks hand
PapaWarbucks collected $6695 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6700 | Rake $5
Board [6c 2d 6s As 9c]
Seat 2: chickenlittl (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Quackers (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Hoss_TBF mucked [Ks Ac]
Seat 6: PapaWarbucks (button) showed [6h Ah] and won ($6695) with a full house, Sixes full of Aces


POKERSTARS GAME #7522362286: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($200/$400) - 2006/12/20 - 02:02:29 (ET)
Table 'Agamemnon' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: cktn7 ($6685 in chips)
Seat 2: somewhrntime ($11590 in chips)
Seat 3: Hoss_TBF ($10695 in chips)
Seat 4: PapaWarbucks ($28395 in chips)
Seat 5: gherick ($10921 in chips)
Seat 6: Renaud ($7520 in chips)
Hoss_TBF: posts small blind $100
PapaWarbucks: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PapaWarbucks [Jc 4d]
gherick: folds
Renaud: folds
cktn7: raises $200 to $400
somewhrntime: raises $200 to $600
Hoss_TBF: raises $200 to $800
Betting is capped
PapaWarbucks: folds
cktn7: calls $400
somewhrntime: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [Ah 7s 6d]
Hoss_TBF: bets $200
cktn7: raises $200 to $400
somewhrntime: folds
Hoss_TBF: raises $200 to $600
cktn7: raises $200 to $800
Betting is capped
Hoss_TBF: calls $200
*** TURN *** [Ah 7s 6d] [4h]
Hoss_TBF: checks
cktn7: bets $400
Hoss_TBF: raises $400 to $800
cktn7: raises $400 to $1200
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** RIVER *** [Ah 7s 6d 4h] [3d]
Hoss_TBF: checks
cktn7: bets $400
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
cktn7: shows [Ad 6c] (two pair, Aces and Sixes)
Hoss_TBF: mucks hand
cktn7 collected $7395 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7400 | Rake $5
Board [Ah 7s 6d 4h 3d]
Seat 1: cktn7 showed [Ad 6c] and won ($7395) with two pair, Aces and Sixes
Seat 2: somewhrntime (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Hoss_TBF (small blind) mucked [7h 6h]
Seat 4: PapaWarbucks (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: gherick folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Renaud folded before Flop (didn't bet)


And some winners:

POKERSTARS GAME #9106677997: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($200/$400) - 2007/03/26 - 21:36:37 (ET)
Table 'McVittie' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 3: PapaWarbucks ($19407 in chips)
Seat 4: pokkermon ($11880 in chips)
Seat 5: ilovemeowmix ($12781 in chips)
Seat 6: Hoss_TBF ($30580 in chips)
PapaWarbucks: posts small blind $100
pokkermon: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PapaWarbucks [8h Ah]
ilovemeowmix: folds
Hoss_TBF: raises $200 to $400
PapaWarbucks: raises $200 to $600
pokkermon: calls $400
Hoss_TBF: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [6c 9h 9d]
PapaWarbucks: bets $200
pokkermon: raises $200 to $400
Hoss_TBF: raises $200 to $600
PapaWarbucks: folds
pokkermon: calls $200
*** TURN *** [6c 9h 9d] [5c]
pokkermon: checks
Hoss_TBF: bets $400
pokkermon: raises $400 to $800
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** RIVER *** [6c 9h 9d 5c] [5s]
pokkermon: bets $400
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
pokkermon: shows [Td 8c] (two pair, Nines and Fives)
Hoss_TBF: shows [As Jd] (two pair, Nines and Fives - Ace kicker)
Hoss_TBF collected $5595 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5600 | Rake $5
Board [6c 9h 9d 5c 5s]
Seat 3: PapaWarbucks (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: pokkermon (big blind) showed [Td 8c] and lost with two pair, Nines and Fives
Seat 5: ilovemeowmix folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Hoss_TBF (button) showed [As Jd] and won ($5595) with two pair, Nines and Fives


POKERSTARS GAME #9128506158: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($200/$400) - 2007/03/28 - 07:11:00 (ET)
Table 'Minerva' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: parliament ($28965 in chips)
Seat 2: Money800 ($7852 in chips)
Seat 3: Hoss_TBF ($17655 in chips)
Seat 4: PapaWarbucks ($32508 in chips)
Seat 5: patrikskjold ($14103 in chips)
Hoss_TBF: posts small blind $100
PapaWarbucks: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PapaWarbucks [Td 7d]
patrikskjold: folds
parliament: raises $200 to $400
Money800: raises $200 to $600
Hoss_TBF: raises $200 to $800
Betting is capped
PapaWarbucks: folds
parliament: calls $400
Money800: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [9c Ad Ah]
Hoss_TBF: bets $200
parliament: calls $200
Money800: folds
*** TURN *** [9c Ad Ah] [3h]
Hoss_TBF: bets $400
parliament: raises $400 to $800
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** RIVER *** [9c Ad Ah 3h] [Js]
Hoss_TBF: checks
parliament: bets $400
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
parliament: shows [Qc Th] (a pair of Aces)
Hoss_TBF: shows [6h 6d] (two pair, Aces and Sixes)
Hoss_TBF collected $5395 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5400 | Rake $5
Board [9c Ad Ah 3h Js]
Seat 1: parliament showed [Qc Th] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: Money800 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Hoss_TBF (small blind) showed [6h 6d] and won ($5395) with two pair, Aces and Sixes
Seat 4: PapaWarbucks (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: patrikskjold folded before Flop (didn't bet)


POKERSTARS GAME #7955276654: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($200/$400) - 2007/01/15 - 17:40:06 (ET)
Table 'Prymno V' 10-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 4: Hoss_TBF ($12607 in chips)
Seat 7: PapaWarbucks ($13626 in chips)
Seat 8: csku ($13614 in chips)
Hoss_TBF: posts small blind $100
PapaWarbucks: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PapaWarbucks [Qc Jc]
csku: folds
Hoss_TBF: raises $200 to $400
PapaWarbucks: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [Jd 4d 5h]
Hoss_TBF: bets $200
PapaWarbucks: calls $200
*** TURN *** [Jd 4d 5h] [9h]
Hoss_TBF: checks
PapaWarbucks: bets $400
Hoss_TBF: raises $400 to $800
PapaWarbucks: raises $400 to $1200
Hoss_TBF: calls $400
*** RIVER *** [Jd 4d 5h 9h] [Qh]
Hoss_TBF: checks
PapaWarbucks: bets $400
Hoss_TBF: raises $400 to $800
PapaWarbucks: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hoss_TBF: shows [2h Kh] (a flush, King high)
PapaWarbucks: mucks hand
Hoss_TBF collected $5198 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5200 | Rake $2
Board [Jd 4d 5h 9h Qh]
Seat 4: Hoss_TBF (small blind) showed [2h Kh] and won ($5198) with a flush, King high
Seat 7: PapaWarbucks (big blind) mucked [Qc Jc]
Seat 8: csku (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)