Crazy Player Isolated By Good Player. What is Your 4-Bet Range?

[Cobretti]

3/6 Stars. 6-handed. Crazy player: 94/88/5.8

It is free money at the table as he has about $600 in front of him and his looks like he wants to give it all away. The only problem is there are 4 vultures who watch to rip apart his dying carcass (and one other crappy player who has no idea what is going on).

You are not in great position against him as he is 3 to your right. On many many hands, it is raised by the crazy player and it is reraised by the next 2 players who are trying to isolate him.

What is you range for 4-betting? I want to hear what others think before I list what my range was.

Also, what is your range when it is raised by crazy player, isolated by good player+1, and 4-bet bet by good player+2 who clearly understands what good player+1 is doing.

[jba]

capping range assuming i have position is around 77/A9s/AJo/KJs/KQo

oop I drop some weaker aces and KJs

calling four cold is around 99/AJs/AQo +/- depending on position.

[Absolution]

I agree with that range and welcome to variance town.

[Oink]

I would cap roughly the same range that I would 3-bet against the good player who is iso-raising the maniac.

So 66, A9s, ATo, KJs, KQo

Maybe this is too tight.

[mscags]

Yeah no kidding, these games are great but can make you want to shoot yourself in the foot

[Cobretti]

[ QUOTE ]
I would cap roughly the same range that I would 3-bet against the good player who is iso-raising the maniac.

So 66, A9s, ATo, KJs, KQo

Maybe this is too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pretty close to that. When it was only 3-bet to me I also included Q,10s, J10s, KJ. However, it just felt too tight at the table. The good players were usually very thin and if you hit anything you were getting paid off.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I would cap roughly the same range that I would 3-bet against the good player who is iso-raising the maniac.

So 66, A9s, ATo, KJs, KQo

Maybe this is too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it's too tight, especially as a capping range.

Postflop is going to be miserable when we miss, by the way. Playing that 66 isn't going to be much fun either, on most flops.

[Cobretti]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with that range and welcome to variance town.

[/ QUOTE ]
One of the other players did a great job talking to this guy - "great catch!" "nice hand!" "this is a fun table". The other players chimed in as well. Everyone made this guy feel really good about losing his money and no one ever complained or berated him when he caught cards, which he did often. The guy finally lost his money, we talked about how much he sucked after he left the table and then the game instantly broke up.

It was a good example of not berating a bad player.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would cap roughly the same range that I would 3-bet against the good player who is iso-raising the maniac.

So 66, A9s, ATo, KJs, KQo

Maybe this is too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it's too tight, especially as a capping range.

Postflop is going to be miserable when we miss, by the way. Playing that 66 isn't going to be much fun either, on most flops.

[/ QUOTE ]


We really have to agree on what range we put the iso raiser.

The maniac is raising any2. So the 3-bettor should have a pretty wide range range. At least top 20% IMO. With that range skewed towards showdownable hands and away from say T9s.

66 and AT does pretty well against that range remembering its 3-way.

So it takes forever to run the stove when its 3-way and there is a "random" range. But ATo and 66 both have around 36-40% eq against the maniacs random hand and the 3-bettors 44, A4s, K7s, QTs, JTs, A6o, KTo.

[Cobretti]

[ QUOTE ]
Postflop is going to be miserable when we miss, by the way. Playing that 66 isn't going to be much fun either, on most flops.

[/ QUOTE ]
The one advantage we have is that the good player is now in the middle between the crazy player and the good player who capped it. 66 UI is not a terrible situation depending on the flop (eg, a flop like 2,5,9r). You almost always have the ability to send 2 bets into the good player and sometimes the good player risks up to 2 more eg - you act first and bet, maniac raises. The good player is going to fold all but a strong hand here. I would feel pretty comfortable calling down 66 then against the maniac who is guaranteed to bet the next 2 streets. Of course, he will beat you lots of times. But, you still have an edge if done in the right spots. Also, you will sometimes backdoor something or catch your 6.

Also, when you do catch you can now change the betting pattern to trap the middled player - e.g., good player bets, you call, maniac raises, good player calls, you reraise. etc.