The free card raise

Fadook · #1 06-25-2007, 02:33 PM

I've heard that this is one of the most misapplied concepts in the forum. So I thought it might be interesting to see some examples of when and when not to use this play.

Specifically, I'd like to see situations, with an explanation, when you think it's correct to raise the flop with just a draw with the intention of taking a free card on the turn. Also would like to see examples of when despite having a decent draw in position, you'd say that this play is probably incorrect.

marchron · #2 06-25-2007, 03:03 PM

You should NOT free card when:

1. You believe the initial bettor will three-bet.
2. You believe the initial bettor will donk the turn if you raise.
3. You have a strong made hand to go with your draw, like AK[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on an Ax 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] board. Not that you shouldn't raise, you just shouldn't do it for a free card.
4. The pot is too small. Say you're at a table that normally plays incredibly loose, so you limp a hand like 87[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], but everyone else folds and the BB checks. Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Qx and he bets into you. Don't raise; you're only getting 3½-1 as it is.

When you should freecard: basically every other situation.

Bona · #3 06-25-2007, 03:10 PM

You said raise the flop but I didn't find that. This is one I bet the draw because it had overcards as well and offered the possibility of a free turn if needed. Notice this a nut flush draw. I probably don't do it without 1st or 2nd nut draw and at least 1 overcard to the board. Others may disagree.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying I played these right I just tried to find you examples. You decide.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

This one has drawing power but no overs and also is subject to being beat by a higher flush or straight. So no bet or raise on the flop. (For me)

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 6 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, SB calls.

River: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

KitCloudkicker · #4 06-25-2007, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You said raise the flop but I didn't find that. This is one I bet the draw because it had overcards as well and offered the possibility of a free turn if needed. Notice this a nut flush draw. I probably don't do it without 1st or 2nd nut draw and at least 1 overcard to the board. Others may disagree.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying I played these right I just tried to find you examples. You decide.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

This one has drawing power but no overs and also is subject to being beat by a higher flush or straight. So no bet or raise on the flop. (For me)

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 6 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, SB calls.

River: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played both of these hands incorrectly.

Hand 1 the turn should be bet. You want all gutshots to fold. You want KQ/KJ to fold. Weak tight players may fold stronger Aces (AK/AQ,AJ) or even small pairs here. There is no real threat of a CR, as there's not a particularly compelling reason to think the 8 hit your opponent. Given that you checked the turn, you must call the river, as you've basically turned your hand face up to your opponent and invited him to come and steal the pot.

Hand 2 is also played incorrectly IMO. There are only 3 people in the hand. Your draw is excellent. Given the small pot many players will give up here even holding middle or bottom pair if you bet out. Given that you C/C the flop, unless you have a strong reason to believe that CR wont work on the turn, you should do it. A turn lead is problematic for 2 reasons:

1) if the flop bettor was stealing on the flop you give him no opportunity to continue the bluff. in addition, if SB is weak you gain no value from the bet whatsoever.

2) if flop bettor has a legit hand he will bet the turn. if sb calls this bet and you CR you can get up to 2 more BB's.

tehox · #5 06-25-2007, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You said raise the flop but I didn't find that. This is one I bet the draw because it had overcards as well and offered the possibility of a free turn if needed. Notice this a nut flush draw. I probably don't do it without 1st or 2nd nut draw and at least 1 overcard to the board. Others may disagree.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying I played these right I just tried to find you examples. You decide.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

This one has drawing power but no overs and also is subject to being beat by a higher flush or straight. So no bet or raise on the flop. (For me)

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 6 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, SB calls.

River: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played both of these hands incorrectly.

Hand 1 the turn should be bet. You want all gutshots to call . You want KQ/KJ to call. Weak tight players may fold stronger Aces (AK/AQ,AJ) or even small pairs here. There is no real threat of a CR, as there's not a particularly compelling reason to think the 8 hit your opponent. Given that you checked the turn, you must call the river, as you've basically turned your hand face up to your opponent and invited him to come and steal the pot.

Hand 2 is also played incorrectly IMO. There are only 3 people in the hand. Your draw is excellent. Given the small pot many players will give up here even holding middle or bottom pair if you bet out. Given that you C/C the flop, unless you have a strong reason to believe that CR wont work on the turn, you should do it. A turn lead is problematic for 2 reasons:

1) if the flop bettor was stealing on the flop you give him no opportunity to continue the bluff. in addition, if SB is weak you gain no value from the bet whatsoever.

2) if flop bettor has a legit hand he will bet the turn. if sb calls this bet and you CR you can get up to 2 more BB's.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp, otherwise agree 100%

Shillx · #6 06-25-2007, 04:13 PM

Too many scenarios to outline but let's start with...

1) You should free card almost everytime you have the nut flush draw.

bravos1 · #7 06-25-2007, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Too many scenarios to outline but let's start with...

1) You should free card almost everytime you have the nut flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brad.. you know better than to make general statements like that [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].. although I guess it is semi-qualified with the "almost".

sharpie · #8 06-25-2007, 04:17 PM

Here's a bad free card play that too many TAGs make: You raise PF with AK, someone donks or check/raises a rag board HU.

JJack · #9 06-25-2007, 04:18 PM

"fyp, otherwise agree 100%"
what do you mean at this sentence?
what is mean "fyp"

Sorry for stupid question [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

bravos1 · #10 06-25-2007, 04:19 PM

fyp - fixed your post... go and look, tehox made some changes to what you wrote and bolded them for your convenience.. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]