A7 hand

[joker122]

30/60 full tilt

guy is pretty tight aggressive.

he opens otb, i 3bet from bb with A7o

flop 45Tr

bet call.

turn 3 putting 2 spades up

do i just c/c down from here?

what if the turn didnt give me a double gutter?

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

Checking the turn is fine, although I don't know if people will stab twice with a worse hand often enough to call a river bet. Your hand is pretty face up here.

Betting for value is probably fine too; I think you'll have trouble getting a bluff out of something like KJ on this board, and you have a lot of outs if you're behind Tx etc.

[Heisenb3rg]

The 3 is a mixed blessing.
You now have more outs if you're behind, but any better ace hand is almost certainly showing down now.

If he suspects you have a very wide 3-betting range, he could be peeling with overcards so your still ahead a lot.

As a rule of thumb I don't like 3-betting OOP, betting flop and checking turn vs TAG's, unless the board is very scary, or you'll have some hands that want to c/f the turn. The reason being, on a board like this, any TAG can immediatly rationalize that you aren't planning to fold anything, check behind his drawing hands, and bet any pair.. Exploiting you to the max.

I would bet/call, and possibly call the river depending on the card that falls. Certaintly fold to a spade, possibly fold to KQJ. (a 7 isnt a great card either, but probabily worth a call).

If you suspect he wouldn't peel overcards here (meaning he doesn't realize your range is so wide) you can probabily c/c, c/f as weak as that sounds... It looks like your planning to showdown, and TAG's dont 2 barrel someone taking a defensive line too often. He could also check both the turn and the river with a higher ace (a good result).

All this applies to when you're only single gutted too, although being double gutted would give you more incentive to bet.

[HOWMANY]

This might sound weird but I am almost more comfortable calling down a turn raise because checking is like turning your hand face up and saying you are going to showdown, and on this board that means you have A high.

[admiralfluff]

[ QUOTE ]
This might sound weird but I am almost more comfortable calling down a turn raise because checking is like turning your hand face up and saying you are going to showdown, and on this board that means you have A high.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty important concept in these games, and I agree. Stox touched on this in his book in a river play situation OoP, where sometimes against some players a b bet will induce more bluff raises than a check will induce bluffs.

In this particular hand I prefer to bet and call-down a raise. We usually have the best hand, and he usually has at least 6 outs that will often fold to the turn bet.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]

In this particular hand I prefer to bet and call-down a raise. We usually have the best hand, and he usually has at least 6 outs that will often fold to the turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is kind of a bad board for the opponent to be bluff-raising since Ace-high usually will not fold because of the gutshot. So I think calling the river is a bit of a spew without history, although occasionally you might get lucky and see him take the free showdown with A6 or just give up on the river follow-through.

[admiralfluff]

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In this particular hand I prefer to bet and call-down a raise. We usually have the best hand, and he usually has at least 6 outs that will often fold to the turn bet.


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This is kind of a bad board for the opponent to be bluff-raising since Ace-high usually will not fold because of the gutshot. So I think calling the river is a bit of a spew without history, although occasionally you might get lucky and see him take the free showdown with A6 or just give up on the river follow-through.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the bluff is bad because an A is always calling the turn. The problem is, a lot of these guys will go a few levels against us. He knows we know this, etc. Cbet/calling the turn and folding the river UI with A high hands here is an exploitable play, and one I do not want to make against these opponents.

Without specific reads against an aggro/tough opponent in a HU steal situation: If I make it to the river with A high, I'm almost always seeing a SD. There are exceptions when boards get really terrible, but people semibluff-raise turns all the time HU. We can't fold the turn, so we should see a SD.

OG and toomuchaction never fold here, and people make retardo bluffs against them all the time.

[joker122]

"OG and toomuchaction never fold here, and people make retardo bluffs against them all the time. "

today was actually my first ever foray into full tilt and toomuchaction seemed horrible. is he a known fish or am i missing something?

[admiralfluff]

The end of my reply was kind of a joke. He's not a total fish. He's probably break-even, or slightly less than. He's a 50/40/2.5 over 25k hands. I think he's better than S915 fwiw.

Whatever he is, he's running hot: 1.6 BB/100, with a stdev of 26BB/100. If he is better than break-even, it's because his style of play encourages poor-mediocre players to make more mistakes against him than they do against more "optmial" stylings.

edit: he's also in the top 10 for hands/day at 10/20-30/60

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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[ QUOTE ]


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In this particular hand I prefer to bet and call-down a raise. We usually have the best hand, and he usually has at least 6 outs that will often fold to the turn bet.


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This is kind of a bad board for the opponent to be bluff-raising since Ace-high usually will not fold because of the gutshot. So I think calling the river is a bit of a spew without history, although occasionally you might get lucky and see him take the free showdown with A6 or just give up on the river follow-through.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the bluff is bad because an A is always calling the turn. The problem is, a lot of these guys will go a few levels against us. He knows we know this, etc. Cbet/calling the turn and folding the river UI with A high hands here is an exploitable play, and one I do not want to make against these opponents.

Without specific reads against an aggro/tough opponent in a HU steal situation: If I make it to the river with A high, I'm almost always seeing a SD. There are exceptions when boards get really terrible, but people semibluff-raise turns all the time HU. We can't fold the turn, so we should see a SD.

OG and toomuchaction never fold here, and people make retardo bluffs against them all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think you're getting multi-leveled here, you're making the game more complicated than it needs to be. The fact of the matter is, this is generally a 3 BB bluff in a relatively small pot, and the range of holdings that people are even going to think about folding is relatively narrow; nobody's folding a pair there, or AJ+. If you feel like calling the river in this scenario, then by all means call. But I don't think some excess value in inducing a bluff that you're going to see to showdown by betting this specific turn against a generic LAG/TAG opponent.