Ethics of a Day Trader

[HP]

I'm currently playing poker for a living. This makes me feel like I'm a leech on society. I see myself as a very small step up from a thief. We both don't pay taxes (I don't live in America), we both support the economy by buying stuff

You could say I am providing a service to losing poker players, but I don't buy that. If all the pros quit today, the losers would just as easily find a game to play (at least at the limits I play)

And I feel a bit underhanded by winning money off players who don't realize they are losers (which is like 90% of losers). Yes I believe sometimes people need protecting from themselves. So I think I'm a small step up from a thief, maybe equivalent to a drug dealer

Feel free to argue any of the above, but it's not quite the point of my post. My question is, for a guy who thinks like I do, is it just as bad to be a day trader? I have aspirations to be a day trader. Are they doing anything for society besides providing a little bit of liquidity in the markets? If I was successful (not just turning a profit, but 'beating the markets'), my money has to come from some one else who's in the markets correct? Am I creating any wealth?

I don't know if this post should have been in the business forum or this one :/

[PLOlover]

heck it can be easily argued that as a poker player at least you are neutral, you do no harm.

That guy cramer on fox did an interview where he came right out and said he committed fraud when he managed a big hedge fund and said that that is just what you have to do. It was on TheStreet.com or somehtign like that it was on utube but they took it down.(video interview) .

If you want to see it I saved it I guess I could upload it somewhere it's about 15 meg.

[jogger08152]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm currently playing poker for a living. This makes me feel like I'm a leech on society. I see myself as a very small step up from a thief. We both don't pay taxes (I don't live in America), we both support the economy by buying stuff

You could say I am providing a service to losing poker players, but I don't buy that. If all the pros quit today, the losers would just as easily find a game to play (at least at the limits I play)

And I feel a bit underhanded by winning money off players who don't realize they are losers (which is like 90% of losers). Yes I believe sometimes people need protecting from themselves. So I think I'm a small step up from a thief, maybe equivalent to a drug dealer

Feel free to argue any of the above, but it's not quite the point of my post. My question is, for a guy who thinks like I do, is it just as bad to be a day trader? I have aspirations to be a day trader. Are they doing anything for society besides providing a little bit of liquidity in the markets? If I was successful (not just turning a profit, but 'beating the markets'), my money has to come from some one else who's in the markets correct? Am I creating any wealth?

I don't know if this post should have been in the business forum or this one :/

[/ QUOTE ]
I've thought about this a bit myself.

Consider the example of Barry Greenstein: he could become a college professor or work in industry, earning (say) somewhere between USD 80k - 250k or so. Instead, he plays poker for a living and donates his tournament winnings to charity. This seems reasonable, especially if those winnings number in the millions and he chooses his charities well.

The opportunity cost is that his (large) brain isn't doing medical research, for example. The benefit is: if he thought it best, he could endow 10 scholarships for future AIDS researchers - or for whatever other endeavor he believes is most worthy.

If Greenstein, or any other person, wishes to contribute to society, his or her best bet may very well be to engage in an economically rewarding but otherwise seemingly unproductive activity, and then allocate a large portion of the resources he accumulates to the things he would otherwise do if he didn't play.

(The exception to this principle might be someone like Einstein (or any other "top ten minds in the field" types), who can personally make more progress in a specific area than he could fund by turning his mind to more economically rewarding activities.)

Good luck with your decision.
-J

[ShakeZula06]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm currently playing poker for a living. This makes me feel like I'm a leech on society. I see myself as a very small step up from a thief. We both don't pay taxes (I don't live in America), we both support the economy by buying stuff

You could say I am providing a service to losing poker players, but I don't buy that. If all the pros quit today, the losers would just as easily find a game to play (at least at the limits I play)

And I feel a bit underhanded by winning money off players who don't realize they are losers (which is like 90% of losers). Yes I believe sometimes people need protecting from themselves. So I think I'm a small step up from a thief, maybe equivalent to a drug dealer


[/ QUOTE ]
some thoughts on being a poker player:

You are providing a service to the cardroom/casino you play at. As for other players, you don't need to justify giving anyone a service. Everyone's actions involved are voluntary. A theif takes something from someone without consent, you and a losing poker player both agree to put up amounts of money and wager that money in different situations. You shouldn't feel bad about the fact that you're better then him. If anything feel good about supplying social darwinism. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
[ QUOTE ]
My question is, for a guy who thinks like I do, is it just as bad to be a day trader? I have aspirations to be a day trader. Are they doing anything for society besides providing a little bit of liquidity in the markets? If I was successful (not just turning a profit, but 'beating the markets'), my money has to come from some one else who's in the markets correct? Am I creating any wealth?

[/ QUOTE ]
i think daily traders have to supply much more society then a poker player. It's nothing more then supplying businesses you deem succcessful with more capital to use, which they use to create better and cheaper products at a faster rate. It's a great thing for the economy.
[ QUOTE ]
my money has to come from some one else who's in the markets correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not positive, but I don't think this is correct, unless in the most literal sense. Stock traders supply a service to businesses which they can use to better supply their consumers with goods and services. In turn the business becomes worth more and your stock goes up.

You are indirectly making money off of consumers, but only in the same sense that any business "takes" money from consumers,which if you find that immoral I don't see how you could suport any type of capitalism.

[hasugopher]

I also play poker for a living. I don't have any trouble sleeping at night. While I acknowledge that I could be very good at something else that would be more beneficial to society, what I do for myself is far more important to me than what I do for society.

If I can make more than the average doctor at the age of 21, doing something I partially enjoy, it would behoove me not to. I opened this thread because in my relatively long list of money making ideas that I can see myself doing, day trading is very close to the top. Just look at it this way: you are doing a service to long-term investors who care more about the long-term growth of their stock (as one example) than comparatively irrelevant short-term swings.