[NL2] Flopped Flush and straight board

RipperTEQ · #1 05-18-2007, 09:07 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($0.97)
Hero ($15.95)
SB ($1.92)
BB ($5)
UTG ($0.98)
UTG+1 ($6.51)
MP1 ($4.93)
MP2 ($6.01)
MP3 ($9.09)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.02, MP3 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.02, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.12) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets $0.04, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.04, MP2 calls $0.04, MP3 raises to $0.08, Hero raises to $0.6, SB raises to $1.9, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $1.82, Hero raises to $5.5, MP3 raises to $9.15, Hero calls $3.57.

Turn: ($20.32) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)

River: ($20.32) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)

Final Pot: $20.32

Results in white below: 
SB has Jd 8s (straight flush, queen high).
MP3 has 5h As (flush, ace high).
Hero has 5s 7s (flush, queen high).
Outcome: SB wins $20.32. 

Looking for thoughts on this hand. My image at the table is very strong, showing AA twice and KK once, all other hands not shown. I think the play was fine up til the all-in move by SB, however I feel that once MP3 calls the all-in from SB, I think this is a push/fold based on reads. I put the other players on, one with made straight/straight draw and the other on nut/high flush draw though I wasn't sure who had which. MP3 stats are 60/15/.9 through ~ 50 hands at that point and SB is 57/7/.6 through 40 hands. So, if I have to play this hand again I would push and hope that MP3 folds or puts his money in with the worst of it. Standard?

I did steam a bit and left the table right after this hand because I felt like the 3x raise was a bad play on my part...cause he's rarely going to call this bet. He'll either fold it or push it, and if I push first I have more FE if he has the nut flush draw. I didn't calculate it, but I'm thinking I probably gave the odds here for him to play the hand. 6 outs on the flop is ~ 25%.

That said, I did calm down and sat back at the table and took back a majority of the money lost against the same player:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($7.31)
BB ($0.76)
UTG ($4.17)
UTG+1 ($4.89)
MP1 ($1)
MP2 ($3.19)
CO ($5.77)
Button ($13.98)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.03.
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $0.1, 2 folds, Button calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.09, BB calls $0.08, UTG calls $0.08.

Flop: ($0.53) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Button bets $0.92, Hero raises to $7.21, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, Button calls $6.29.

Turn: ($14.95) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($14.95) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $14.95

Results in white below: 
Hero has Th Jh (flush, jack high).
Button has 4d 5s (straight, eight high).
Outcome: Hero wins $14.95. 

Thoughts on that hand are welcome too, though I felt like that was pretty standard.

Ampelmann · #2 05-18-2007, 09:29 AM

Raising to 6c after MP3 raised to 8c in hand 1 is really bad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Other than that: Make a good sized raise on the flop the first time you get the chance, possibly get all your money in (which is what you did), this is not a flop to slowplay. You want to make higher spades pay for their draw.

CaptVimes · #3 05-18-2007, 09:33 AM

FOld equity is almost non-existant at NL2 in this situation. Table image really doesn't matter either, people just aren't paying attention. They are playing their cards and nothing else.

They only thing I can say is that I generally don't go nuts when I don't have the nut flush. Especially when you are that deep. This is NL2 though so your likely to be good here a lot. You got your money in good but realize that you could not improve and your oppenents could and did, plus they had the odds to call you. This situation only occurs once in a great while and it sucks when you lose.

Second hand is standard. Don't post results and only post the hand up until the point where you have a question about your action. You will get better answers that way.

Ampelmann · #4 05-18-2007, 09:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
They only thing I can say is that I generally don't go nuts when I don't have the nut flush. Especially when you are that deep. This is NL2 though so your likely to be good here a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]
In hand 1 it's extremely likely that we have the best hand on the flop. Flopped flush under flopped flush happens once in a while, but you're supposed to lose quite some money then. However, anyone with the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] might be inclined to come along (and at this level will come along almost always) and ppl can have straights, sets and OESD's, too. So I see no reason not to go nuts on the flop in hand one. We have a nice equity edge.

Wouldn't you try to get all your money in with this flop in NL10?

SireCh · #5 05-18-2007, 09:53 AM

first hand:

i agree with you that your second raise should be either push/fold. After your second raise the pot is approx. ~9.5 and he has to call ~3.6. With a push you give him worse odds (like 1:2).
As for folding...i don't know, they seem to be very loose so you could be ahead a good chunk of the time, but im always a bit lost playing big pots with lowcards-flushes though

RipperTEQ · #6 05-18-2007, 09:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raising to 6c after MP3 raised to 8c in hand 1 is really bad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean here? The raise was an overbet, if that's what you mean then what do you recommend for a raise? My thought process here is that we still have 5 players in the hand with 3 already acting before me and putting in money. So I made a significant raise for two reasons: 1) I feel my flush is vulnerable to a higher one card flush draw, possible even by more than one of these players based on the action. 2) Raising up I either take down the pot (which I'm okay with even if I'm hoping to get more money here) or I get alot of money in the pot by inducing action with almost surely the best hand. I also want to make these guys pay for drawing, because at this level they will chase even with bad odds.

Ampelmann · #7 05-18-2007, 09:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising to 6c after MP3 raised to 8c in hand 1 is really bad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean here? The raise was an overbet,

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] I misread the action. I thought the converter messed something up and hero raised to 6c as opposed to 60c.

CaptVimes · #8 05-18-2007, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They only thing I can say is that I generally don't go nuts when I don't have the nut flush. Especially when you are that deep. This is NL2 though so your likely to be good here a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]
In hand 1 it's extremely likely that we have the best hand on the flop. Flopped flush under flopped flush happens once in a while, but you're supposed to lose quite some money then. However, anyone with the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] might be inclined to come along (and at this level will come along almost always) and ppl can have straights, sets and OESD's, too. So I see no reason not to go nuts on the flop in hand one. We have a nice equity edge.

Wouldn't you try to get all your money in with this flop in NL10?

[/ QUOTE ]

You know how hard it is to get flushes paid off. People see a three flush and wet themselves trying to get out of the way. Two people getting all into that flop besides me with 57s isn't all that exciting with that stack size in a limped PF pot. How often are you sitting at an NL10 table with almost 80.00. With three people involved on the flop we can't raise enough to price out of anyone with a flush draw. I would rather try to wait for a safe turn and push. Looking at this hand again, it doesn't look like we could even make it to the turn though. Even if we call when the SB pushes, the other Big stack will raise again making it near impossible to bet enough on the turn to take away his odds.

Op got his money in good, and that is always a good thing.

meh, I'm a weak tight nit.