50nl - AQ minraised -> small bet -> push

[danny8]

unfortunatly no reads at all... in the few hands ive been here hes open limped a couple times and limped behind others too... never seen him raise pf

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $50.90
BB: $96.27
<font color="black">Hero (UTG): $57.00</font>
CO: $36.24
BTN: $39.80

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2.00</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $2.00, 2 folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($4.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $3.50</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $7.00</font>, Hero calls $3.50

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($18.75) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $5.50</font>, Hero calls $5.50

<font color="black">River:</font> ($29.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets all-in for $25.30</font>,Hero..


whats my best line here?

should i just push over his small turn bet? or is calling ok - anyone fold?

what about the river?

all comments appreciated, thanks!

[DeadMoneySimm]

Fold. He's playing like he either flopped two-pair or a set. Possibly even overplaying QQ in the flop.

[doppelganger]

I donk the turn for about $12 and then I'm done w/ the hand if he shows further resistance. Min-raises are either badly played monsters or ridiculous donkey nonsense. If he's got the goods I'd like to know about it now and not invite him to make a position move on me on the river.

[Chomp]

Yeah, I think you're toast here on river. KQ? Never in a million years IMO.

I also think your line is probably the most EV.

The other option, donking the turn, costs more than c/c and seems an expensive way to find out if villain was bluff minraising the flop. Besides, do worse hands call and better hands fold? Probably not*, and no way. (*at least, not often enough against an unknown to make it profitable).

So, we get to the river cheaply and find out the final bit of inforation we need: villain had a set all along (maybe a weird 2p) and we can now fold knowing we have put the least possible money in while we were behind.

And if we were ahead, where could we have got more money in? Meh, maybe a 1/2 pot bet somewhere, but it's so marginal as to whether he'll call (when behind), that I don't think we've lost too much EV on that score.

Finally, if we put ourselves in villain's shoes: how credible is it that he has just run a 3barrel bluff? Whoooof. I just do not think that people do that very often.

(Opinion, not advice, so I'm open to correction on any of this).

[barryc83]

raise the turn, then push the river yourself and stack QJ.

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the turn, then push the river yourself and stack QJ.

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow, seriously? Are unknows that bad/mad? I mean, what could make someone play QJ like this?

Sheesh, I'm really clueless lmfao.

[NikkiSixx]

[ QUOTE ]
I donk the turn for about $12 and then I'm done w/ the hand if he shows further resistance. Min-raises are either badly played monsters or ridiculous donkey nonsense. If he's got the goods I'd like to know about it now and not invite him to make a position move on me on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[barryc83]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise the turn, then push the river yourself and stack QJ.

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow, seriously? Are unknows that bad/mad? I mean, what could make someone play QJ like this?

Sheesh, I'm really clueless lmfao.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im american so idk about pp, but on ps ive played enough to recognize most regs so i assume unknowns are donks. that turn bet looks really fishy to me so id raise for value. also, the guy has 80bb and i have tptk, so barring a read that hes a nit im stacking off.

[doppelganger]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I think you're toast here on river. KQ? Never in a million years IMO.

I also think your line is probably the most EV.

The other option, donking the turn, costs more than c/c and seems an expensive way to find out if villain was bluff minraising the flop. Besides, do worse hands call and better hands fold? Probably not*, and no way. (*at least, not often enough against an unknown to make it profitable).

So, we get to the river cheaply and find out the final bit of inforation we need: villain had a set all along (maybe a weird 2p) and we can now fold knowing we have put the least possible money in while we were behind.

And if we were ahead, where could we have got more money in? Meh, maybe a 1/2 pot bet somewhere, but it's so marginal as to whether he'll call (when behind), that I don't think we've lost too much EV on that score.

Finally, if we put ourselves in villain's shoes: how credible is it that he has just run a 3barrel bluff? Whoooof. I just do not think that people do that very often.

(Opinion, not advice, so I'm open to correction on any of this).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well..hmmm...see here's the frustrating thing about min-raises: They bloat the pot to the point that a flop 3-bet is unreasonable with a one pair hand, but they aren't strong enough to convince me we're beat by an unknown. I think a lot of unknowns will test your c-bet if they hit any piece of the board, so this can easily be A9 or A4, or a weaker Q. We just don't know. We also don't know that there's another 9 coming on the river.

Donking the turn is more expensive than c/c, but it's cheaper than 3-betting the flop, and allows us to see another card before we put in more of our chips. I guess maybe it's a leak of mine, but I just don't respect flop min-raises enough to put them squarely on 2p or a set.

I mentioned in another thread that I think we need to have a long discussion of min-raises and what they mean. Maybe I'll try to put some hands together for discussion later.

[Dunkman]

There's a couple things in the OP that, imo, seem to be severely tainting the discussion. First, when we check the turn there's no reason for us to think his bet is going to be so small. So yeah, donking the turn for $12 looks bad when we know he bet $5, but we wouldn't have known that. Secondly, we know that villain pushed the river. I'm not crazy about raising the flop. Hey, bet/call the flop then crai on the turn isn't called "stack-a-donk" for nothing, and I think that's maybe the way to go here.