Evolutionists MUST Be Semi Atheists

[David Sklansky]

Even the most hard core creationist, with half a brain, admit that some changes occur due to survival of the fittest. DNA guarantees that. If there is a designer involved, it is obviously indirect in many cases.

But what about traits that are particularly well adapted, and there is yet no obvious path to that trait through mere mutation and survival of the fittest? I'm no expert, but I'm sure many, if not most, of the traits of living things fit that description. Evolutionists have little doubt that the fact that they can't pinpoint how those traits evolved is not strong evidence against their general theory. They are sure evolution somehow caused those traits rather than an intelligent designer. What they won't admit publicly though, maybe even to themselves, is that their certainty does not make sense unless they are also certain that there is no such thing as an intelligent designer. That last statement is a mathematical fact.

Say, for the sake of argument that human's immune system has, as of yet, not been explained by the same evolutionary logic that polar bear's white coat's have. If there was any reasonable chance that there was a designer out there who is omnipotent, and sometimes directly intervenes, then that would be the more likely explanation for the immune system. (Again I'm stipulating it is presently a big puzzle.) Baye's Theorem. The argument that so many things have eventually been explained via evolution isn't strong enough to make it a favorite over an intelligent designer. At least in some cases. You can only lay big odds on evolution if you are also willing to lay big odds against the existence of an entity that EVER designs anything directly. Because if he sometimes does, he likely designed the immune system or whatever.

Thus the underlying assumption of all who believe that all the traits of living things evolved, is that it is very improbable that there is a God who directly designs anything. Are Catholics comfortable with that?

[durron597]

Do you mean semi atheists or semi agnostics? Sounds like the latter to me

[Phil153]

I disagree with you. Long observation and a number of scientific amazing discoveries has taught us that God-glue is not required to make things work. Even if an incredible miracle occurred today, many religious scientists would look for naturalistic explanations first (aliens, unknown natural phenomena,etc). The history of scientific discovery - which has made fools of the BluffTHIS!'s and NotReady's of history - is enough to make educated people wary of invoking supernaturalism as an explanation.

Your post would have been accurate 200 years ago.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Long observation and a number of scientific amazing discoveries has taught us that God-glue is not required to make things work.


[/ QUOTE ]

No science will ever teach us that God isn't necessary. By definition.

[ QUOTE ]

The history of scientific discovery - which has made fools of the BluffTHIS!'s and NotReady's of history - is enough to make educated people wary of invoking supernaturalism as an explanation.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please substantiate this. Give examples. Be specific.

[NotReady]

Sorry, thought this was a new thread.

[GoodCallYouWin]

DS :

I think you'd have realized already that religion is about faith : ergo any logical argument that considers religion is worthless (and hence any rational discussion about religion is worthless). Anyway, to say because someone believes something they must believe something else is silly and patently false, no matter the logic used.

[ChrisV]

The problem with your argument is that natural selection is more or less an all or nothing proposition. You can't have most of an organism created through natural selection and then bits tacked on later by a designer.

Take your example of the immune system. How would that work? Were humans wandering around for a while with no immune system and then suddenly pow! fully functioning immune system? If so, how did they survive with no immune system?

If organisms evolve at all, it seems silly to be to imagine bits suddenly tacked on. That suggests that beforehand, they were a functioning organism apart from not having that specific bit. But this then suggests that the bit is non essential, so it seems to me impossible that crucial pieces of an organism could be added in this way.

[David Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with your argument is that natural selection is more or less an all or nothing proposition. You can't have most of an organism created through natural selection and then bits tacked on later by a designer.

Take your example of the immune system. How would that work? Were humans wandering around for a while with no immune system and then suddenly pow! fully functioning immune system? If so, how did they survive with no immune system?

If organisms evolve at all, it seems silly to be to imagine bits suddenly tacked on. That suggests that beforehand, they were a functioning organism apart from not having that specific bit. But this then suggests that the bit is non essential, so it seems to me impossible that crucial pieces of an organism could be added in this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are and Phil have missed my point. Maybe the whole organism was designed. The thing is that if there is a God that designs anything, then it is entirely possible, even if not probable, that he also designed things that include stuff that we presently have no explanation for. Too many of such things still exist to dismiss that possibility. Unless the possibility of such a God existing is also dismissed.

[SitNHit]

[/ QUOTE ]
You are and Phil have missed my point. Maybe the whole organism was designed. The thing is that if there is a God that designs anything, then it is entirely possible, even if not probable, that he also designed things that include stuff that we presently have no explanation for. Too many of such things still exist to dismiss that possibility. Unless the possibility of such a God existing is also dismissed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean just like the universe started from some point and God created the things neccessary for it to evolve, just as our perfect orbit for us to exist, like he programmed it to work out this way knowing that we eventually would be created and what we would be like. Think of how big the universe is how it works, how are planet fits in with our galaxy and our perfect place in orbit and then how we are humans and our traits, special talents, characteristics, funtions of our brains, etc. I don't know where I am going with this but I think what you were trying to say that maybe evolution is the case in alot of things, but God created the things that have evolved.

I believe that the two most ignorant things to say is that God and the Devil absolutley do not exist.

I would think even for a non-believler that any person who has a brain with common sense and reason would be open to at least the possibility.

Anyways, maybe I am not sophistacted enough for this discussion, haha. Thought I would try to add my 2 cents in.
Mike.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that the two most ignorant things to say is that God and the Devil absolutley do not exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you feel the same way when someone says unicorns dont exist?