heroic river fold in live hand + mini fallsview trip report

[yourface]

I went to fallsview casino in niagra this afternoon and played some 5/10 limit. the games were pretty soft, but not as much as I had been hoping. plenty of players who played too many hands preflop and too weakly postflop, but none of the drunken drooling retards I had heard about. I think my problem was that I was there during the afternoon not late at night (stupid bus schedules).

the game ran from 6-10 players depending on who was on smoke/craps break. playing full ring was pretty boring (folding preflop sucks) but I had some beers and chatted up the fish so it was all good. it was neat to get a glimpse into what goes in in their heads. seems like lots of whining about bad beats/whiffing with unpaired hands, being incredibly paranoid about being sucked out on, and determining the lucky seats/dealers. I get the feeling that these guys are much more succeptible to results oriented thinking than online players because of their more limited playing experience. I commiserated with them and encouraged their faulty thinking (don't educate the fish obv).


anyways, I was hella cold decked and lost the 2 biggest pots I was involved in. one was a standard cooler AQ vs AK on an A high flop (villain didn't reraise AK preflop obv, and he played it pretty weakly postflop). here is the more interesting one.

villain in this hand limps too many weak hands preflop, but he has a strong raising range. he plays straightforwardly postflop (always had the goods when he raised), but he likes to slowplay his big hands. in one hand he checked behind a flopped boat after the pfr checked to him, then called a turn bet and popped the river.

9 handed
EP limps, folded to villain in LMP who raises, his luckbox gf folds in the HJ, I 3ball K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], button folds, SB folds, weak BB calls 2, EP folds, villain says something about capping if EP had come along and calls.

flop A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB checks, villain checks, I bet, BB folds, villain calls

turn 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
villain checks, I check behind

river A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
villain bets, I think for a couple seconds and raise it up saying "I'm gonna raise", villain instantly reraises saying "well then I'm gonna reraise", I fold

thoughts on my turn and river play?


for my last hand I raise blind UTG (no live straddles allowed wtf), it gets cold called in 3 places and the BB comes along. flop comes AQ7r. BB checks, I look down and see K2o (standard). it gets checked around. turn comes a 2 and it gets checked around again. river is another deuce, I bet and get called in 2 places by 78 and 88. ship it crucial I end the 5 hour session -2BB. of course the fish tell me to stick around, does that make me the fish?

[TheWunderkind]

why would you raise the KK Hand on the River? folding seems good to the 3ball

[yourface]

meh I think there is value in it. there are lots of PP combos that will bet/call imo (zeebo theorem yo), and just one ace.

turn good?

[TheWunderkind]

[ QUOTE ]
he plays straightforwardly postflop (always had the goods when he raised), but he likes to slowplay his big hands



[/ QUOTE ]

what pps do you expect to see?

not sure about Turn tough> but it seems good unless hes a callingstation

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you raise the KK Hand on the River? folding is a very good opportunity to get "accidentally" bluffed out by 99, or some other PP...you really think QQ is impossible here?

[/ QUOTE ]

[PokerSparky]

Villain would have to turn his Ace face up for me to fold to the river three-bet. Horrible fold IMO.

[xerxesthegod]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain would have to turn his Ace face up for me to fold to the river three-bet. Horrible fold IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

[bobhalford]

Well, when he 3-bets the river he's got an ace an awful lot. I can't imagine him doing this with QQ. I don't think the fold is bad. I would get weak on the river and just call though because I'd really be fearing the ace after he checks and calls the flop.

On the turn, I would bet again. If he raises, you can call with odds to hit the flush or boat. You may be able to fold the river in that case, unimproved. Our read on villain is that he wouldn't be so tricky to check-raise this turn with a worse hand (even if he had the QsQx). That's because he should fear that hero has AK/AQ if he himself doesn't have an ace. We don't expect a semibluff check-raise from him, so a turn check-raise is an ace or QJs.

[yourface]

I think TT-QQ are in his range, I'll admit I'm not sure how many of those he would bet.

lets say his range is AJ-AK, TT+. I'm not sure if he'd isoraise AJ preflop but whatever. I'm also not sure about how many of his PPs would bet/call the river.
AJ*4, AQ*4, AK*2
TT*6, JJ*6, QQ*6 (assuming he would cap KK preflop)

so if that is his full betting range on the river, a raise is definately for value as long as I can confidently fold to a 3bet. I did feel confident folding to the 3bet, but I wouldn't make that play online vs more aggressive opponents.

now that I think about it more I really don't know how many of those PPs he would bet. he's not a very good player, and he's not the kind to make thin value bets. none of them are really, the number of times I saw TP or an overpair get checked behind on the river...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree with you wunderkid the raise was bad vs this guy. I had underestimated the AX combos he could have, and overestimated his likelihood of betting the river with a PP.

fwiw he tabled AQ after I folded, and when I asked him what he thought I had he immdiately said "cowboys!".

[yourface]

on the turn his range is weighted towards aces
AJ*8 AQ*8 AK*4
vs TT*6 JJ*6 QQ*6

I'd be paying the better part of 2 bets to all his AX combos and gaining almost a full 1 from his PPs. he might even fold the weaker PPs here, but I don't think it's too likely he's a bit of a station.

so the check behind was defensive. I couldn't fold to a c/r after picking up the draw, and I wasn't worried about protecting my hand from a spade. plus maybe I extract more from weaker PPs this way but I admit I wasn't taking that into consideration.