About Phil Hellmuth & the Difference between Tournament and Cash Poker

[PapaSmurf]

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth erupts vs. Negreanu on HSP:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=E8O8a_un_r8

'I didn't think he'd re-raise me with ace [censored] 10, I can't put him on that [censored] hand!'

This to me is the ultimate example of Phil playing tournament poker in a cash game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a quote from the thread "All Time Favorite TV Moments" in the Televised Poker Section. I have a question about it, but didn't want to post it there and hijack that thread.

I, as a beginner, understand the basic difference between tournament and cash poker (or at least i think so). There's the structure with increasing antes and blinds in a tourney, and the fact that you're not playing "real-money", all you can lose is your initial buy-in. I also know that you're not supposed to just survive, you have to accumulate chips in order to increase your chances in the tourney. All that amounts to very different strategies between tournament and cash games.

I also know it's a common belief that Hellmuth is a lousy cash game player. So here's my question: How is he playing tournament poker in a cash game in this particular hand?

Thanks in advance.

[Harv72b]

In a tournament, survival is sometimes more important than your immediate EV in a given situation; tournament players call this cEV vs. EV, where cEV is their "cash equity value". In other words, in a situation like this if Hellmuth held QQ or a similar hand, he might fold rather than risk calling & facing either a coinflip with AK or domination by AA/KK if he felt at the time that such a call would not benefit him in that tournament; if this was postflop on an Axx flop, he might even fold AK to a big raise assuming that Negreanu had flopped a set or two pair to play back at him. Since Hellmuth will always believe that he is the best player in any given tournament, he will make folds like that more often (preferring not to risk coinflips, etc, because he feels that he will get better opportunities later in the tourny to outplay his opponent).

In a cash game, though, there is no worry over making the money or maintaining one's stack size. If Hellmuth feels that his hand is better than Negreanu's raising hand often enough to make the call given the current pot odds, then he should call--this is because in a cash game, you can always replenish your stack. Passing up a +EV situation in a cash game is very rarely good, and especially when you are comfortably bankrolled for that game.

Short version: tournament players will often err on the side of caution in order to ensure survival, while cash players should not if they feel they have even a slight equity edge.

[PapaSmurf]

Thank you for your response, Harv72b.

I understand the concept you explained, but i don't see it applied in this particular hand. The hand went more or less like this:

Blinds: 300/600
Stacks: unknown

Negreanu has position on Hellmuth.

Preflop: Hellmuth is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Negreanu A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hellmuth raises to 3500, Negreanu re-raises to 7000. Everybody else folds. Negreanu bets 10000 in the dark.

Flop: ($15700) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hellmuth checks, Negreanu puts in the 10000 he bet in the dark. Hellmuth calls.

Turn: ($35700) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hellmuth checks, Negreanu bets 25000, Hellmuth calls and astonishingly gives away his hand by saying that Negreanu has QQ.

River: ($85700) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hellmuth checks, Negreanu bets 40000, Hellmuth calls.

After showdown Phil flips out and starts ranting about how he didn't think Negreanu would've re-raised him pre-flop with AT. Apparently he put Negreanu on a pocket pair.

I'm a total newb, so maybe i'm missing something that's obvious for the experienced players. I don't know the stack sizes, so maybe i'm missing something there too. I still don't see this as the "ultimate example of Phil playing tournament poker in a cash game", as the poster i quoted wrote. Does a pre-flop re-raise with a trouble hand like AT make more sense in a cash game than in a tournament?
Since a pre-flop re-raise can more easily lead to being put all-in in a tournament, my guess is that Hellmuth didn't expect to be re-raised by a hand that could be easily dominated, like AT.

Is this what the poster meant? Please correct me if i'm wrong.

[mikehildebrand]

Part of it is that the other players at the table know PH reputation, that is a big part of it, so they were firing at him a lot. For the rest, this is just my noob HO.
I feel theat PH saw his raise to 3500 as an aggressive, "take it down" raise. For DN to come over the top, it appears as if he is protecting the third or fourth nuts (QQ or maybe even JJ). I think the bet in the dark is what solidifies this in PH's head; PH ALSO knows DN is an aggressive player and if he missed the board, or if he has second pair on the board, he will fire at it again. The reason this is more tournament style is because PH has put DN on only a few hands that he feels he could have started or bet with, when PH opened with an aggressive raise. He is not taking into the fact that DN is a good cash game player too and has opened up his game and loosened up his restrictions on the opening hands, as opposed to just playing and betting large pocket pairs. If anyone has any other insight, please, I am interested as well - this is just my thought as a noob.

[KipBond]

Two pertinent points that are being missed:

1) Daniel MIN-raised Phil. He wasn't protecting a hand.
2) Daniel only bet in the dark after Phil checked in the dark (something Phil loves to do).

Phil made 2 big mistakes: 1) Raising UTG with A4o. 2) Checking dark, and 1 huge mistake: Giving away his hand.

Oh, and calling Daniel's value-bet when he should know he just gave his hand away.

Oh, and putting Daniel on too narrow of a range.

I think that's it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Jeff76]

The biggest difference between most tournament play and cash play is that cash games are "deeper"- people have more chips in relation to the blinds in cash games than in tournaments except very early on. Thus, you have more room to maneuver in cash games- in fact, very often in tournaments players don't have enough chips to bet much beyond the flop (because they are all in).

[PapaSmurf]

[ QUOTE ]
Two pertinent points that are being missed:

1) Daniel MIN-raised Phil. He wasn't protecting a hand.
2) Daniel only bet in the dark after Phil checked in the dark (something Phil loves to do).

Phil made 2 big mistakes: 1) Raising UTG with A4o. 2) Checking dark, and 1 huge mistake: Giving away his hand.

Oh, and calling Daniel's value-bet when he should know he just gave his hand away.

Oh, and putting Daniel on too narrow of a range.

I think that's it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we agree that he didn't play the hand particularly well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. What i don't see clearly is the connection between the way he played this hand, and the fact that he's more of a tournament player. The poster i quoted in my OP stated that "this is the ultimate example of Phil playing tournament poker in a cash game". I'm assuming he's right, so I'm trying to understand the connection in this particular hand.

[gedanken]

Phil's answer seems to be that it's a mistake to minraise a 6BB opener with ATo, deepstacked in a tournament. Is he right?

[lucky_mf]

PH just misplayed this hand (badly). It has nothing to do with him being tourney donk per se.

Lucky

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
Phil's answer seems to be that it's a mistake to minraise a 6BB opener with ATo, deepstacked in a tournament. Is he right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably "more wrong" than doing it in a cash game. Daniel was mixing up his game, trying to throw Phil off & take control of the pot -- which seemed to work very well. I'd say it's usually not a good thing to do, though.