Passively played draw OOP

[Novles]

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$1/$2 Blinds
6 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter

Hero: $222.30
BB: $205
UTG: $214.10
MP: $177.80
CO: $224.25
BTN: $109

<font color="black">Reads: </font><font color="blue">UTG is a 28/12 weakish TAG over a few hundred hands. I don’t think he bets the flop against 3 players w/o at least a semi-strong holding, so I don’t think a flop c/r has much FE, but perhaps it’s better than calling? Or maybe leading the flop is good? CO is a fish and could be calling the flop with a number of holdings. BB is an unknown. Hero is TAG, but has been relatively quiet. I think I'm getting the implied odds to call the turn and open shove the river if I get there, but this whole hand just felt dirty.</font>

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $7</font>, MP folds, CO calls $7, BTN folds, Hero calls $6, BB calls $5.

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($28) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
Hero checks (?), BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $16</font>, CO calls $16, Hero calls $16(?), BB calls $16.

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($92) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
Hero checks (?), BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $40</font>, CO folds, Hero calls $40 (?), BB folds.

<font color="black">River:</font> ($172) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $120</font>, Hero folds.

[Grim Reapa]

Fold preflop OOP??

JTs is the nuts but not OOP.

[johnnyrocket]

preflop your call is somewhat loose especially cuz ur OOP, i would say only play these if ur strong postflop

leading out on a flop like this smells strongly of a draw, if u were real strong wouldnt u check raise? thats what a good player will think and prolly pop up ur bet. The flop call is okay, the turn call is fine also, i'll give u the math.

You are getting 132-40 on ur money so a little over 3-1. You will get there 1 in 5 times with ur flush draw + another 3 hidden outs with queen. This is 12 outs out of 46 unseen cards, I think its safe to say villain clearly has atleast an ace or king so we know one card so its more like 45 unseen cards. So we need to get implied odds of 33-12 on our money here. We are getting more than this, 3-1 from the pot plus we are making some more if we hit on the river and folding if we dont hit so this is an easy call.

[PBJaxx]

These do feel dirty. Calling down for a draw just doesn't feel natural, but it is fine in some spots.

With your read, this is good. If you are going to raise any where, a flop C/R isn't bad, but you have to make it pretty big. Like I said, this is fine, IMO.

[PBJaxx]

Do you know anything about UTG's betting tendencies? The flop and turn bets are pretty freakin weak. This is unlikely to be an AJ, AQ type hand. I think this is a monster (set of kings, etc) or marginal like JJ, QQ, etc. A read here would make a big difference.

[Grunch]

Preflop: meh. I personally fold. If you are a skilled postflop player, calling might be OK. I'm actually not sure.

Postflop: If there were only 2 opponents, I would have led the flop. As played, I actually like leading the turn. Only an Ace or better will raise you. Most weak made hands will fold, and even many Kings.

As played on the turn your call might be ok, but you are going to have real problems with implied odds. I doubt I call here.

[kayfish77]

fold preflop. if not u basically got a great flop for your hand. check raise, or lead or do something so your hand isnt face up. definitely check raising the turn has alot of merit.i guess we dont have a ton fold equity, but who knows, but the way u played this hand i think hes only paying off a rivered straight if you do hit on the river.

[Novles]

All,

Sure, pf is close, but CO is a huge fish and will stack off frequently when I hit huge. I think postflop is a lot more interesting, but if you think pf is terrible, then by all means say so.

PB,

“Do you know anything about UTG's betting tendencies? The flop and turn bets are pretty freakin weak. This is unlikely to be an AJ, AQ type hand. I think this is a monster (set of kings, etc) or marginal like JJ, QQ, etc. A read here would make a big difference.”

I agree it looks like a monster or air. Unfortunately I haven’t played with this guy enough to pick up on his betting tendencies.

Grunch,

“Postflop: If there were only 2 opponents, I would have led the flop. As played, I actually like leading the turn. Only an Ace or better will raise you. Most weak made hands will fold, and even many Kings.”

I think getting flatcalled by at least one player leaves us in a sticky situation on the river if we miss. If we lead turn for $60 and get called by one player, the pot on the river is $212 w/ ~$140 behind. Are you ever following through on the river?

“As played on the turn your call might be ok, but you are going to have real problems with implied odds. I doubt I call here.”

Why do you think we’ll have problems with implied odds? If we give ourselves 11 outs (9 for FD + 3 Queens - ~1 out discount for a higher FD), we need only make up $35 on the river when we hit.

[Paul Thomson]

Preflop -- whatever. embrace variance if it works to your advantage.

Flop -- I think check-raising is better for a couple of a reasons. It's kinda of a squeeze play since the preflop raiser has to be nervous of the donk caller and the donk caller almost certainly has a weak hand.

Plus, we want to fold out better draws. If we had the nut flush, I suggest calling.

So I'd raise the flop and if the donk calls. I'm leading the turn.