When is it correct to fold KK or QQ pre-flop?

[a breath of air]

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $25
<font color="black">Hero (BB): $25</font>
UTG: $30.45
UTG+1: $28.85
<font color="black">MP1: $61.70</font>
MP2: $25
CO: $4.80
BTN: $12.05

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 Players)
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 folds, CO calls $0.25, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.50</font>, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $4.85</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $11</font>, <font color="red">MP1 raises all-in to $61.70</font>, Hero calls all-in for $14
Uncalled bet of $36.70 returned to MP1

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($50.35) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($50.35) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

<font color="black">River:</font> ($50.35) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

Pot Size: $50.35 ($2.50 Rake)

MP1 had A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Aces) and WON (+$22.85)
Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings) and LOST (-$25)

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $32.50
BB: $24
UTG: $23.90
<font color="black">Hero (UTG+1): $25.75</font>
MP1: $51.65
MP2: $22.45
CO: $10.50
BTN: $46.25

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8 Players)
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.10</font>, 2 folds, CO calls $1.10, 2 folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $1.95</font>, UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.25</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $10.55</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $4.30 returned to BB

Pot Size: $13.95

My Analysis: My opponent's range after making the 4th raise is most likely only AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AK. KK has 57% equity vs. this range so it is almost always correct to call the 4th raise with KK and get all-in with the rest of my money on any flop not containing an ace.

Hand 0: 57.191% 54.62% 02.57% 117843360 5545566.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 42.809% 40.24% 02.57% 86815812 5545566.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Assuming you have little information as to how your opponent plays, how often is your opponent's range only AA, KK when he or she makes the 4th raise?

Please post comments and/or suggestions.

[effang]

just fold preflop.

[BigBiceps]

It is player dependent.

So basically the 2 hand histories you posted do not give enough information, but in hand 2 it is a pretty bad fold.

hand 2: a) don't 4-bet here if you are not going to go allin.
b) you are getting about 4-1 to call here.

[raistlinx]

[ QUOTE ]
just fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice answer dick

When your opponent puts in a 4th raise and you have KK/QQ (and believe he has AA) the answer comes down to pot odds if he is all-in and set odds if not.

Here, you have to fold since you will not get paid off enough when you hit your set.

If he was all-in however and you would get to see all 5 cards you could call if you were getting about 4-1 (and it was heads up)

[a breath of air]

[ QUOTE ]
It is player dependent.

So basically the 2 hand histories you posted do not give enough information, but in hand 2 it is a pretty bad fold.

hand 2: a) don't 4-bet here if you are not going to go allin.
b) you are getting about 4-1 to call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah 4:1 pre-flop, but the rest of the money is going in on the flop after the pre-flop action. Correct me if I am wrong but I will essentially be putting the rest of my stack in either pre-flop or on the flop ($17.75). Assuming my opponent also puts the rest of his stack in, the pot will be giving me 1.7:1 ($30.25/$17.75).

[a breath of air]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice answer dick

When your opponent puts in a 4th raise and you have KK/QQ (and believe he has AA) the answer comes down to pot odds if he is all-in and set odds if not.

Here, you have to fold since you will not get paid off enough when you hit your set.

If he was all-in however and you would get to see all 5 cards you could call if you were getting about 4-1 (and it was heads up)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are sure that your opponent has exactly AA pre-flop then you should fold getting less than 4:1 and call getting greater than 4:1, but is your opponents range ever this narrow? If not what other hands can his or her range include?

[raistlinx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice answer dick

When your opponent puts in a 4th raise and you have KK/QQ (and believe he has AA) the answer comes down to pot odds if he is all-in and set odds if not.

Here, you have to fold since you will not get paid off enough when you hit your set.

If he was all-in however and you would get to see all 5 cards you could call if you were getting about 4-1 (and it was heads up)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are sure that your opponent has exactly AA pre-flop then you should fold getting less than 4:1 and call getting greater than 4:1, but is your opponents range ever this narrow? If not what other hands can his or her range include?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well unless you have some read that your opponent is a complete idiot and will put in the 4th raise with worse hands I would always assume he has AA if I have KK and AA/KK vs QQ. In either case you are roughly 4-1 to draw out by the river. Sure sometimes he will have some junk hand, but not enough to make it profitable to call.