Religion is 'Evil'?

[Woolygimp]

There are idiot Christians, and there are idiot atheists who are repeating the same half-assed rhetoric that a child could disprove and there seem to be a lot of them on this forum. What a waste of time posting here as I thought there would be intelligent people here, since it's an off-set of a poker forum, but I'm guessing a lot of you guys busted your rolls at $5 NL.

So you guys feel that religion is evil and has caused nothing but suffering. You quote Hitler and the Crusades as your 'proof'.

I'll start off by saying religion doesn't start wars. Ideologies start wars as they are a peoples strongest beliefs. Conflict is our nature, and it usually arises from things that we oppose the most.

If a protester burned a peice of paper... nobody would care.
If a protester burned an American flag at the funeral of a dead soldier in Iraq... almost everyone would care.

Communism vs Capitalism was just as dangerous as Islam vs Christianity. It just so happens that to most people their religion is their strongest belief.
Can you convince a Christian God doesn't exist?

What if a Christian tried to tell you that God did exist? You'd show the same amount of resistance, because again atheism itself is an ideology albeit with different core aspects.

To get an objective view on religions effects on society we have to go back several thousand years.

The Romans were a great example. Albeit they had their own gods most historians agree that they weren't as religious as say the Greeks, or the Persians.

Now do some research on Roman culture, and compare it to ours. Humans rights were almost non-existent. They conquered a town? They'd have no qualms with killing everyone in it, or enslaving the rest [George Bush wasn't alive so don't even try to blame the mass murder of the Romans on him].

The American Indians didn't have a centralized religion, so are you saying that they never fought with each other? Yeah, I hope by now you are realizing just how dumb those of you that put out this nonsense actually are. Again the Indians would have no problems murdering everyone in a conquered village.

So let's get with the most modern examples, Hitler and the Crusades.

Christianity is evil because they slaughtered the inhabitants of Jerusalem?

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The difference between that and Christianity is that when Christianity was spread by the edge of the sword it was done so in contradistinction to the actually teachings of Christianity. This is when individual people who claim to be Christians actually did things that were inconsistent with their faith.

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Hitler wasn't a Christian, and was in fact an atheist and a lunatic.

Stalin was an atheist, he murdered twice as many people as Hitler.

Hirohito was an atheist, he murdered three times as many people as Hitler.

There are evil people capable of massive amounts of suffering and harm everywhere, and they aren't limited to a specific group.

Let's do some reasoning. There's a person who's going to die, and his life sucks. He believes that he will be held accountable for his actions in the afterlife.

Would he be more or less likely to go to a school/mall/public place, such as Virginia Tech, and kill dozens of people?

Does anyone wanna actually argue this weak point, or can we all assume posters like 'M Theory' are jackasses?

[Neuge]

Proposing ridiculous strawmans that no one here holds to call some posters "jackasses" is a really endearing quality.

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So you guys feel that religion is evil and has caused nothing but suffering. You quote Hitler and the Crusades as your 'proof'.

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I don't think anyone says religion is inherently evil and has never anything but suffering. There are many positive aspects of religion, and many people use it to better their lives and help others. But you cannot say that religion hasn't inspired abominable actions by its followers. Saying that Christians who perpetrate such things are not following Christian doctrine, and therefore are not being motivated by their faith is wrong. No matter what the teachings of Christianity and how much their actions were opposed to it, they were still inspired by and fighting for their religion.

Also, citing the atheist who have committed horrible atrocities does not imply they were undertaken because of atheism like the picture you are trying to paint. There are several issues that humans war over, and religion happens to be one of them. It's not always the main reason for a conflict, or even a reason at all, but humans do and have warred over it.

[Woolygimp]

Well this post wasn't directed towards you, but at those who believe that religion was the single great detriment to the human race.

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I've had some people that have told me when I've brought this up, "That's not a fair defense. You can't simply say that those people who committed the Crusades or the Inquisition or the witch burnings weren't real Christians. That's illegitimate." My response is, why? We know what a real Christian is. A real Christian is someone who believes particular things and lives a particular kind of lifestyle. John makes it clear that those who consistently live unrighteously are ipso facto by definition not part of the faith. So why is it illegitimate for me to look at people who claim to be Christians, yet live unrighteous lives, and promote genocide to say that these people aren't living consistently with the text, therefore you can't really call them Christians. I think that's legitimate.



For example, no one would fault the Hippocratic Oath, which is a very rigid standard of conduct for physicians, just because there are doctors who don't keep it. We wouldn't say there's something wrong with the oath, the code that they allegedly follow. We'd say there was something wrong with the individuals who don't live up to the ideals of that code. That is the case frequently where people waving the Bible in one hand are also waving a bloody sword in the other. The two are inconsistent. So it's not fair or reasonable to fault the Bible when the person who's waving the sword is doing things that are contradictory to what the Bible teaches ought to be done

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[Taraz]

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Well this post wasn't directed towards you, but at those who believe that religion was the single great detriment to the human race.

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I've had some people that have told me when I've brought this up, "That's not a fair defense. You can't simply say that those people who committed the Crusades or the Inquisition or the witch burnings weren't real Christians. That's illegitimate." My response is, why? We know what a real Christian is. A real Christian is someone who believes particular things and lives a particular kind of lifestyle. John makes it clear that those who consistently live unrighteously are ipso facto by definition not part of the faith. So why is it illegitimate for me to look at people who claim to be Christians, yet live unrighteous lives, and promote genocide to say that these people aren't living consistently with the text, therefore you can't really call them Christians. I think that's legitimate.



For example, no one would fault the Hippocratic Oath, which is a very rigid standard of conduct for physicians, just because there are doctors who don't keep it. We wouldn't say there's something wrong with the oath, the code that they allegedly follow. We'd say there was something wrong with the individuals who don't live up to the ideals of that code. That is the case frequently where people waving the Bible in one hand are also waving a bloody sword in the other. The two are inconsistent. So it's not fair or reasonable to fault the Bible when the person who's waving the sword is doing things that are contradictory to what the Bible teaches ought to be done

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I don't think it's so much that people think that the actual tenets of a particular religion are evil.

I think the "religion is evil" idea stems from the fact that religion often encourages people to do as they are told and to not question things. Basically, religion requires you to take certain things on faith and can lead to a mindset where you don't think critically about things. This can lead to people to really crazy things, including evil acts, without ever taking a step back to understand what they are doing.

I personally don't believe it's a very good argument against religion as a whole. I just don't agree that religion necessarily leads to fundamentalism. It is a danger that should be guarded against, but I think you're right when you say that almost any ideology can lead to fundamentalism.

[arahant]

It's unfortunate that the facts aren't on your side here. You can say things like "I reason that religious people are less likely to do such and such", but that doesn't make it true - it just highlights a flaw in your reasoning.

After all, I would reason that religious people are less likely to get divorced, but the opposite is true.

I would reason that there would be more atheists per capita in prison, since we have no fear of hell, but the opposite is true.

And before you make an ass of yourself any further, you should probably recognize that the people you are arguing with aren't just irreligious...they're also a lot smarter than you, and groundless ad hominen attacks aren't going to help your argument.

But thanks for stopping by and raising this interesting point. We hadn't seen it before here.

[Woolygimp]

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It's unfortunate that the facts aren't on your side here. You can say things like "I reason that religious people are less likely to do such and such", but that doesn't make it true - it just highlights a flaw in your reasoning.

After all, I would reason that religious people are less likely to get divorced, but the opposite is true.

I would reason that there would be more atheists per capita in prison, since we have no fear of hell, but the opposite is true.

And before you make an ass of yourself any further, you should probably recognize that the people you are arguing with aren't just irreligious...they're also a lot smarter than you, and groundless ad hominen attacks aren't going to help your argument.

But thanks for stopping by and raising this interesting point. We hadn't seen it before here.

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I'm so impressed that you have a level of intelligence to replace simple English phrases with those a Latin background. Do you speak Latin as well?

Impoverished people are more likely to commit crime, but it's also a lot more likely these same people are more likely to turn to religion.

The majority of people who are in prison are there for simple narcotic crimes, not murder. Again the facts are on my side Prima Facie, because the mass murderers of the 20th century are almost all unilaterally atheist.

How are my conclusions more flawed than the assumption you just made regarding my intelligence level. I'm sure that you are able to grasp the level of my intelligence by reading one post, and then assume that all 'irreligious' are automatically of a higher capacity of thought. It's these absolutes that prove that you are not of Ne Plus Ultra, and your post was far from Magnuum Opus.

You're entire statement is Ipse Dixit, and it makes me Ad Nauseam because your ignorance is Ad Infinitum. Increase your skills relating to A Priori, because your A posteriori is flawed due to Res Ipsa Loquitur.

Wait. This is an english forum, but I guess using latin makes me appear smarter than I actually am.

Thanks, buddy.

[Sephus]

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What a waste of time posting here as I thought there would be intelligent people here, since it's an off-set of a poker forum, but I'm guessing a lot of you guys busted your rolls at $5 NL.

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now that you know...

[ShakeZula06]

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Can you convince a Christian God doesn't exist?


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Uh, yeah, believe it or not a lot of atheists were raised as Christians.

[KreellKeiser]

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Hitler wasn't a Christian, and was in fact an atheist and a lunatic.

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"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Adolf Hitler wrote that in Mein Kampf. Get your facts straight before you make an absurd argument.

[Woolygimp]

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Was Hitler a Christian?
By John Baskette - but the information came from Marty Helgesen in a soc.religion.christian post.

The claim is sometimes made that Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic until the day he died. In fact, Hitler rejected Christianity.

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, [censored]? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

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What's your next absurd claim? That Stalin and Hirohito were secretly Christian as well?

The Hirohito killed the tens of millions of Chinese so he could get to the Jews to exterminate them as well?


The capacity of thought in this forum is lower than that of BB4Life but at least they don't pretend that they know what they are talking about w/ exception to Taraz. I think your reply had a lot of merit, and made a valid point.