Odd Stud/8 ruling at Canterbury

[2461Badugi]

6/12; this game essentially never runs. We got it started yesterday because some people busting out of the Fall Classic Omaha/8 were willing to give it a shot, and the Omaha/8 lists were huge. All the staff was pretty out of practice.

Hand comes up that I've folded on third. Three-way on sixth street, action completes and dealer pitches the first river card faceup. He or they realize this immediately and call the floor (Big John). After they sort it out floor rules that the first player keeps the card, the other two river cards should be dealt faceup and action should resume.

I don't think anybody in the hand was upset about this, and there certainly was a total lack of the lobbying and recriminations so often discussed on this forum, but the ruling struck me as somewhat poor, and I was curious either to hear a justification for it or to find out what a more proper ruling should have been. (My instinct would be to rehuffle the exposed card into the stub and deal the river normally.)

Even if the ruling was wrong it was handled professionally on all sides, which is always nice to see.

[Nate.]

I've seen things like this happen a few times but I admit I don't know all the relevant rules.

At least once, I've seen the following:

Face-up river stays. Relevant player can, when it's her turn, check/bet/raise/call/whatever or declare all-in and not participate in river betting.

Come to think, that might be standard (in my experience).

--Nate

[*TT*]

From Roberts Rules of Poker:

[ QUOTE ]


13. If the dealer burns two cards for one round or fails to burn a card, the cards will be corrected, if at all possible, to their proper positions. If this should happen on a final downcard, and either a card intermingles with a player's other holecards or a player looks at the card, the player must accept that card.

16. An all-in player should receive holecards dealt facedown, but if the final holecard to such a player is dealt faceup, the card must be kept, and the other players receive their normal card.

17. If the dealer turns the last card faceup to any player, the hand now high on the board using all the upcards will start the action. The following rules apply to the dealing of cards:

(a) If there are more than two players, all remaining players receive their last card facedown. A player whose last card is faceup has the option of declaring all-in (before betting action starts).

(b) If there are only two players remaining and the first player's final downcard is dealt faceup, the second player's final downcard will also be dealt faceup, and the betting proceeds as normal. In the event the first player's final card is dealt facedown and the opponent's final card is dealt faceup, the player with the faceup final card has the option of declaring all-in (before betting action starts).



[/ QUOTE ]

I hope this helps.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Cooling Heels]

I've played in other rooms where the player with the exposed river card can declare himself all-in, but the ruling was correct per Canterbury rules. It actually is a common occurance.

Canterbury Rulebook:

If the final card to a player is exposed, the following rules apply:

a. a faceup final card is always treated as a down card in determining who initiates action on the final round.

b. If the first player (not all in) received a card faceup, all other players receive the cards faceup and the action proceeds as normal

c. In heads-up play, if only one player's final card is exposed, there shall be no betting action.

[RR]

They got it right. Normally in stud games if the first player to receive the 7th card get it up eerone gets it up, if some of the 7th cards are delat down and then one pops up that player keeps the card and has the option of being allin. I prefer that whoever was first on sixth street is first again on 7th without considering the new up cards, but some places consider that 7th card as an up card when determining who starts the action.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
From Roberts Rules of Poker:

[ QUOTE ]


13. If the dealer burns two cards for one round or fails to burn a card, the cards will be corrected, if at all possible, to their proper positions. If this should happen on a final downcard, and either a card intermingles with a player's other holecards or a player looks at the card, the player must accept that card.

16. An all-in player should receive holecards dealt facedown, but if the final holecard to such a player is dealt faceup, the card must be kept, and the other players receive their normal card.

17. If the dealer turns the last card faceup to any player, the hand now high on the board using all the upcards will start the action. The following rules apply to the dealing of cards:

(a) If there are more than two players, all remaining players receive their last card facedown. A player whose last card is faceup has the option of declaring all-in (before betting action starts).

(b) If there are only two players remaining and the first player's final downcard is dealt faceup, the second player's final downcard will also be dealt faceup, and the betting proceeds as normal. In the event the first player's final card is dealt facedown and the opponent's final card is dealt faceup, the player with the faceup final card has the option of declaring all-in (before betting action starts).



[/ QUOTE ]

I hope this helps.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Robert is incorrect (or incomplete) in a couple of spots here.

edit to add: They are his rules and he can write what he wants. He is not consistent with what is done in casinos.

[2461Badugi]

[ QUOTE ]
They got it right. Normally in stud games if the first player to receive the 7th card get it up eerone gets it up, if some of the 7th cards are delat down and then one pops up that player keeps the card and has the option of being allin. I prefer that whoever was first on sixth street is first again on 7th without considering the new up cards, but some places consider that 7th card as an up card when determining who starts the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so why is this superior (or even equal) to reshuffling, or to just killing the card, burning again, and dealing rivers to everyone? Both seem obviously better options.

(Note that I don't consider Stud players' famed inability to understand the concept of randomness a legitimate reason. That some of these same people wonder why it's a dying game would amuse me if it didn't make me so sad.)

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so why is this superior (or even equal) to reshuffling, or to just killing the card, burning again, and dealing rivers to everyone? Both seem obviously better options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the most basic reason is this is the way they have always done it and if it isn't broke don't fix it.

Alternatively we could point out that reshuffling can lead to cheating. Say there is a marked card (any card). Now the dealer can see that this card coming off the deck is (or isn't as the case may be) the marked card, he can flip it up and even if he can't do anythign to the deck he gets another shot at dealing the card he wants to come off the deck. Generally if it can be avoided we want to avoid redealing cards as this can introduce a spot for dealers (or players or both) to cheat.

[Andy B]

Casino poker rules do tend to go overboard in ensuring that people get the "right" cards. For example, if the turn card is exposed in hold'em, they'll deal the "natural" river card as the turn card and then shuffle the exposed card in so that it has some chance of coming back into play. If you don't give people the "right" cards, they might think they're getting screwed, and any appearance of impropriety is very bad if you're in the gambling business.

If I lost out on the card that made my hand because it was exposed, I'd be kind of upset.

I'm pretty sure that I've played more hands of stud at Canterbury than anyone else who posts here. John's a good floor-man, and he made the right ruling here. I think that the theory is that everyone has the same disadvantage. As Randy mentioned, whoever had the high board on sixth leads the betting.

If it had been someone else who had his card exposed, then only his card is exposed. Many players will mix their river card in with their other cards right away, so you couldn't count on someone to expose the "right" card.

Sorry I missed out on this game, and indeed I'm sorry that I won't be able to make it down there at all during the Fall Classic.

[booger]

right on the nose randy