Christians getting killed... good?

[JDalla]

The goal here is not to offend anyone, but hopefully have a rational discussion about such matters. This is debate specifically the logic of these arguments, not whether or not God exists, Christianity is correct, or if we came from monkeys...


ok so the requirements for getting into Heaven differ in different denominations, but generalizing the critera we have:

1) Accept God into your heart
2) Ask forgiveness for your sins / repent
3) Believe Jesus died on the cross for you
4) Be baptised


Ok, so assume the following premises:

1) Your religion is correct
2) You have accepted God into your heart
3) You have asked forgiveness for your sins / repented for them
4) You believe Jesus died on the cross for you
5) You are babtised
6) Heaven is greater than any possible Earthly life
7) You will be in Heaven for enternity (should you make it)
8) Bob kills you

Conclusion) You go to heaven.

Because of Bob's murderous actions, he has secured you an enterity of heaven. Is this not a favor?

-Or, 8a) you are fatally struck by lightning.

therefore) You go to heaven.

Mother Nature (or God's will) has done you a great favor?

How about this one:

1) If you love someone, you ultimately wish the best for them
2) you love your child
3) your child meets the critera for getting into heaven
4) Your child is murdered

Conclusion) The murder of your child is a very good thing for him or her. You may grieve the loss, be shocked at the act, but you surely can't say "it's not fair, he was so young/innocent" and such, because really he lucked out! Now you don't have to worry about him later in life losing some of his heaven citera, i.e. renouncing his faith, etc. (and really, one lifetime of pain/suffering/loss is rather insignicant compared to eternity)


Following this line of reasoning, you could conclude: Murder of righteous Christians is only a bad thing for the killers, and a good thing for righteous Christians.

Broken down:

1) Righteous Christians who are murdered will spend eterity in the best possible place.
2) Murders (and other sinners) will spend eterity in Hell, which is the worst fate.

Conclusion) you should feel more sorry for the murderers you murdered child. True, at the present moment the murder is making your life much worse, breaking the parent-child bond... etc. But that will only affect you for 80 years at most... compared to the ETERNITY of hell the murder gets. I'd say the kid is damn lucky, he doesn't even have to put up with the sad days, he goes right to the good place.

possible responses:

a) "I don't believe in Hell, only Heaven"
answer: I can make a similar argument for "abscene of Heaven" instead of Hell if you want. It still works.

b) "The Lord works in mysterious ways"
answer: You didn't address the argument in any way, only make a vague claim that you believe it to be wrong, but you don't know why.

c) "I believe everyone goes to Heaven"
answer: you're a universalist. you'll have to come up with a reason why I shouldn't murder and rob people all the time (besides the law).

d) "Doing everything in your power to save lives is required in Christianity"
answer: if anyone want to take this position I'll write you up a brand new post, full of hypothetical situations and such goodness.


If you disagree with these conclusions, you must attack one or more of the premises, or the soundness of the argument (if the truth of the premiese force the conclusion to be true). I would like to hear where you think this argument goes wrong. And isn't it your duty as Christians to teach me the error of my thinking? (perhaps not, some would say so.)

[51cards]

Lots of contradictions. They make me doubt my faith. Now I'm going to hell.

[theweatherman]

What about a person who murders children immediately after they are baptized? These children go to heaven as a direct result of the murder's actions. Therefore the murder is saving the child's soul.

Is this not the ultimate goal of Christians on Earth, to save others from damnation?

By this logic, if the murder was to accept Jesus and meet the criteria for heaven otherwise, would he go to heaven for saving the souls of many people or would this be a sin?

[txag007]

Nothing wrong with your argument per se, but I'd add this:

1. Christians can't lose their salvation, so it doesn't matter if you kill me now or I die 50 years from now, I'm going to heaven.

2. God is in control. He will not allow us to be taken from this world until He is ready for us.

3. Murder is still wrong. The effects of the murder you addressed in your post are true, but that doesn't make murder right.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Christians can't lose their salvation, so it doesn't matter if you kill me now or I die 50 years from now, I'm going to heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

All the exchristians on here are going to heaven?

[ QUOTE ]
2. God is in control. He will not allow us to be taken from this world until He is ready for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there some defense/mitigating circumstance available to the murderer here? "god would have stopped me if he didn't want Hortense to die, he stopped Gustavio."

[ QUOTE ]
3. Murder is still wrong. The effects of the murder you addressed in your post are true, but that doesn't make murder right.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can it be wrong if god stops the ones he doesn't want to occur? ( in the 'victim is assured heaven' cases). It'd be like punishing somebody for giving you a billion dollars.

luckyme

[kurto]

You should read Christopher Durang's short play, "Sister Mary Ignatius Explains It All For You". Its a humorous look at Catholic school and its traumas.... at the end, (SPOILER) the nun kills some people after they repent sending them straight to heaven.

[dknightx]

blasphemy is an unforgivable sin, therefore, the answer to your question is, no, not all exchristians are going to heaven (and not all "christians" are either, and whose to say you were really, truly received salvation to begin with? only God knows). I'll state this one more time: we don't actually KNOW 100% what qualifies someone to go to hell, we really dont. We have some ideas, but we can never 100% determine if someone will. Conversely, we have a pretty good idea of what will get you to heaven, however, thats not someone we HUMANS can judge. Why? its not like we know 100% the thought process of certain people. They could be faking it, they could be doing good things out of selfishness and pride, etc, etc.

[JDalla]

[ QUOTE ]
blasphemy is an unforgivable sin, therefore, the answer to your question is, no, not all exchristians are going to heaven (and not all "christians" are either, and whose to say you were really, truly received salvation to begin with? only God knows). I'll state this one more time: we don't actually KNOW 100% what qualifies someone to go to hell, we really dont. We have some ideas, but we can never 100% determine if someone will. Conversely, we have a pretty good idea of what will get you to heaven, however, thats not someone we HUMANS can judge. Why? its not like we know 100% the thought process of certain people. They could be faking it, they could be doing good things out of selfishness and pride, etc, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]


Could rerun the argument with "absense of heaven" replaces hell. Eternity is so long it would be worth a lifetime of touture to guarentee heaven.

[dknightx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
blasphemy is an unforgivable sin, therefore, the answer to your question is, no, not all exchristians are going to heaven (and not all "christians" are either, and whose to say you were really, truly received salvation to begin with? only God knows). I'll state this one more time: we don't actually KNOW 100% what qualifies someone to go to hell, we really dont. We have some ideas, but we can never 100% determine if someone will. Conversely, we have a pretty good idea of what will get you to heaven, however, thats not someone we HUMANS can judge. Why? its not like we know 100% the thought process of certain people. They could be faking it, they could be doing good things out of selfishness and pride, etc, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]


Could rerun the argument with "absense of heaven" replaces hell. Eternity is so long it would be worth a lifetime of touture to guarentee heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

this idea has been debated countless times already in this forum, do a search if you care enough.

[revots33]

Good post.

A related contradiction I've noticed:

1. Christians say our sense of right and wrong comes from god (in other words, without god we wouldn't even know murder was wrong).

2. If god allows a person to be killed (say a young child struck by lightning or those high-school kids killed by the tornado), it is part of god's plan.

3. Humans instinctively feel that a young child getting killed by lightning or a tornado is wrong.

4. But how can we, if our sense of what's wrong comes from god, and he's the one who wanted the child's life to end at that particular instant?