tt, reraised pot on the turn -- crai, pot, push, fold?

[whaahhahahah]

400 stacks -- 2/4 nl.

only read on the player is that he's also playing a 600nl hu game.

he raises to 12. i reraise to 40 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

flop (80)
3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
i bet 50. he calls.

turn (180)
5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
bet 120? c/c? crai? open push? fold to big bet? a small one?

or maybe bet 30 or 60 or whatever looks like ak one diamond trying to see another card.

[snorer]

first things first, leading $50 on flop here is just asking to be put in a weird turn situation

[acidca]

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first things first, leading $50 on flop here is just asking to be put in a weird turn situation

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??

[Readzie]

hey means that your begging to be floated by a good player about 9/10 times here.

1) you have no info on him and he knows that so he can really make u his bitch and ud have to believe it since there is no way you can tell whether he is capable of bluffing or not.

2) By leading out 50 at an 80 dollar pot on a straight and flush board hes going to call anything from 55-AJ diamond and ever some hands like 67 89 are going to stick around here.

3) what good turn card is there when he does call which he will most times. everything thats not an over is going to be a dangerous card.

hes saying that OOP your going to get floated at this level when you lead out with such a weak bet. Either bet 70 and fold to a re raise or simply take a much smarter route and not 3 bet this hand OOP on a player you have no info about.

Simply call and play postflop and learn how this player is playing. Avoid marginal situations until you have information to make those situations profitable instead of marginal.

make sense?

[whaahhahahah]

what hands would you reraise oop? qq+, aq+?

i really really hate the idea of check/calling this flop. as it stands i have a wide range for betting and he has a wide range for calling (as you said). if i check/call, he can significantly narrow my range. however, i have zero info on his range.

also, i don't think there's much difference in betting 50 versus 70. we haven't played before, so he can't know if i always bet 50 or always bet 70.

last if he calls 70, there will be 220 in the pot and 290 behind. this essentially takes away the option to checkraise all in if he's on a float.

[snorer]

a reraise OOP here is standard and there's nothing wrong with it... the problem is that you got just about 1 of the best flops you could hope for and gave him better than 2.5:1 on a call with position. there's a huge difference between betting $50 and betting $70, and it has nothing to do with what you think his read is on you regarding how much you typically lead for. if you don't see why there's a big difference, your best bet would be to move down from 2/4 for a while, because regardless of how bad most of the people play, it's going to be anything but a cakewalk for you given the typical style of play. there's a ton of options here, and a weak lead is probably just about the worst imho... maybe even worse than a check call, as gross as that is. if you just started playing this guy, and he's 3xing and then calling a 10x right off the bat, i would just assume he's a fish and play accordingly. but i'll be damned if i lead $50 on a 9 high flop against a said fish... especially if part of your reasoning for leading is to "get info on his range". because here you did just that, and you have no idea what to do on the turn; so really what info have you gained? most of the time i would full pot here, or just slightly under. if i got called i wouldn't give it all that much credit, and i wouldn't really mind getting it in on this turn. if i had any indication that he might try to play position strongly on me, i'd usually go for a checkraise on this flop... which is pretty bad as far as really good HU play goes, but against a 2/4 donk it's probably the most effective play and let's you get a lot more money in the pot for turn action. as played i would lead turn for a significant amount, almost pot, and if met with any kind of resistance i'd just get it in. but i'd be a little pissed later if i had to shoe myself in the rear end for losing this pot partly because i only led $50 on this flop when i just put in $40 preflop with it.

[whaahhahahah]

sorry that didn't come out clear. i know i'm not getting much info on his range with the c-bet. the more important reason for raise is that i don't want to give info on my range. a c/c gives a huge amount of info.

also, a checkraise on the flop versus an unknown here is suicide as it will likely commit me to the pot and let him make, at best, a $70 mistake.

also, i'm not really sure about what you mean about the huge diffence between leading for $50 and leading for $70. i think whether he floats here is primarily dependent on his tendencies as a player. there are players who float all the time; there are players who never float; but i don't think there are many players who float a $50 lead but fold a $70 lead.

did you play limit before this? i don't think most nl hu players think in terms or getting 2:1 on a flop c-bet or 2.5:1 or whatever it may be. unless it's an overbet, they just think: "he bet, i . . . "

anyway, i'm surprised here. i thought preflop and flop c-bet were standard (except maybe the bet size).

[snorer]

[ QUOTE ]

sorry that didn't come out clear. i know i'm not getting much info on his range with the c-bet. the more important reason for raise is that i don't want to give info on my range. a c/c gives a huge amount of info.

[/ QUOTE ]

what kind of info exactly, that you have an overpair? don't think so. keep in mind i'm not advocating a check call anyway... but it gives no accurate info away at all about your hand.

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also, a checkraise on the flop versus an unknown here is suicide as it will likely commit me to the pot and let him make, at best, a $70 mistake.

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just started playing him, right? and right off the bat he's defending a 3 bet to 10x with position. what do you really think that range is against a random player? committing yourself to this pot isn't something you should be trying to avoid. that's the kind of frame of mind that will lead to you putting in ~$200-$300 and getting away for the rest of the stack. you're out of position with a strong hand that can very quickly turn marginal at best. don't be greedy enough to think your hand is worth more than a "$70 mistake at best". your objective on this flop without a read on this player is to get as much money in the pot as you can. if you're beat, you're beat. you move on and adapt your play as you learn more about him. but heads up no limit cash isn't the place to be playing guessing games and having the first priority of avoiding getting coolered.

[ QUOTE ]

did you play limit before this? i don't think most nl hu players think in terms or getting 2:1 on a flop c-bet or 2.5:1 or whatever it may be. unless it's an overbet, they just think: "he bet, i . . . "

[/ QUOTE ]
and that's one of the many reasons midstakes HU is such a cash cow.

[ QUOTE ]

anyway, i'm surprised here. i thought preflop and flop c-bet were standard (except maybe the bet size).

[/ QUOTE ]

they are standard aside from the bet size... but the bet size is obviously the most important thing. and like i said from the beginning, the last thing you want to do here is weak lead this flop against an unknown, get floated on, and have no clue what to do on a ton of turn cards (which is what happened here)