Is poker gambling?

[JackSevenSuited]

The other day me and my friend were arguing about the very nature of poker. Is poker gambling? I know in a literal sense putting money into a community pot, whether in blackjack, roulette or poker is risking your money, therefore gambling, but theoretically Is poker really a gamble. Assume you only put money in the pot when you are a favorite or getting the right price due to skill (knowing your opponent, pot odds etc). In terms of the math, you can expect to win more than you lose, making putting that money into the pot an investment rather than a gamble. I know luck gets thrown into the mix but theoretically the luck will even out over the long run. Suggestions, comments?

[JackSevenSuited]

Also consider that when i do decide to gamble, i often find myself in the common coin toss, usually in tournaments. Although this is a gamble I am betting on something that i have at least a 45% chance. What other forms of gambling do you have a 45% chance to win? Not the slots, not the lottery, not roulette. What are the odds of winning on any given slot machine. Presumably much worse than the odds you have on even a measley two outer. (roughly 8% on flop and 4% on turn

[JaredL]

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Assume you only put money in the pot when you are a favorite or getting the right price due to skill (knowing your opponent, pot odds etc). In terms of the math, you can expect to win more than you lose, making putting that money into the pot an investment rather than a gamble. I know luck gets thrown into the mix but theoretically the luck will even out over the long run. Suggestions, comments?

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Here's your thought process applied to roulette:

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Assume you only put money on the roulette table when you are not getting the right odds due to gamb0000l. In terms of the math, you can expect to lose more than you win, making putting that money into the pot a transfer to the house rather than a gamble. I know luck gets thrown into the mix but theoretically the luck will even out over the long run.

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If roulette isn't gambling, then there is no such thing as gambling. As far as I can tell the thought processes are the same.

As far as whether it is gambling, why is it relevant that poker is +EV? Do you think the gambling addict that spends hour upon hour at the casino playing slots and craps is gambling? The same EV equations apply to her.

Overall I don't think it matters. Poker clearly is gambling. People, especially those trying to convince themselves or others that it's ok for them to play poker, want that not to be the case because there is some social stigma attached. If you want to convince someone that it's ok, IMO a better approach is to look at a lot of other gambling situations that are ok. Investing in the stock market, for example, is clearly gambling. Convince yourself or others that the form of gambling in which you are participating is more like this than the dude losing his work check a dollar at a time in the slot machine.

Jared

[SixT4]

Yes.

[Gonso]

Here's a few links to past "Is Poker Gambling?" threads (they pop up regularly):

Is Poker Gambling?
Another one
Yet another

The short answer is yes. You'll get a lot of people who say no, but they're just arguing semantics and trying to rewrite the definition of "gambling". There's always RoR in poker.

[Poker Plan]

Read the first few chapters of Small Stakes Holdem. The definitive answer to your very question is answered there.

[Mike]

ditto

[Megenoita]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a few links to past "Is Poker Gambling?" threads (they pop up regularly):

Is Poker Gambling?
Another one
Yet another

The short answer is yes. You'll get a lot of people who say no, but they're just arguing semantics and trying to rewrite the definition of "gambling". There's always RoR in poker.

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Name one thing in life where there's not RoR in some sense.

When lay people talk about whether poker is gambling, they mean, does an element of chance prevail theoretically? Although they never state this as such, that's what they mean. And the answer is, for the skilled poker player who has an edge, in the long run, no, poker is not gambling. If you argue that there's RoR in poker, well there's the same in putting your money in an insured bank. The bank could go broke via a national crisis, China could blow up our country when you're on vacation, etc. There's always RoR, no matter how minute. If you ask me my RoR with my BR playing the stakes I do, it's probably around 1/20,000. So it's gambling? I have a better chance of winning some lotteries than going broke.

When people on 2.2 say poker is definitely "gambling", they mean it is wagering something of value on an uncertain outcome. However, when lay people discuss whether poker is gambling, they're obviously not talking about the same definition; for everyone knows that the game wagers money on an outcome that is not known. The real question that people are asking is, is poker a game where skill or chance predominates? They're asking if poker is a game where skill will prevail, or will luck?

Believe me, when lay people ask you if poker is a game of skill or luck, if it's "gambling", for the true, wise professional, the answer is, "no".

For unwise pros, it can be b/c they play above their BR, they tilt and play -EV poker, they literally gamble with coinflips all in preflop, they go for draws when they know they don't have the odds when they're steaming, etc.

For wise pros who play well within their bankroll, their RoR is lower than pretty much all investments in the real world, and if they play at stakes where their edge is large, at least in NL, you win somewhere around 6/7 days played, assuming around 2k-2.5k hands/day and no tilt.

Because lay people don't think investing in stocks is gambling, or owning one's own business, or starting a new business, then neither is professional poker for the wise pro. Not in the way most people discuss it. In a technical sense? Yes. Practically by what people mean when they discuss it on a daily basis? No.

People who don't play poker need to understand that it's a game of skill, that my money is more certain than their paycheck. I can't have a losing month b/c my edge is too big, I play too many hands, and I have so many forms of cushion such as rakeback and bonuses. I gamble a lot less than most businesses, yet for them it's called "investing".

For outsiders, we have to be careful what we allow them to call "gambling", and be clear about how they are defining it compared to how we are. You should ask them to define it before answering their question.

[KneeCo]

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Is poker gambling?

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Yes. Idiot.

[HSB]

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Is poker gambling?

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Yes. Idiot.

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