Raise for Value or Just call??

honker · #1 02-13-2007, 01:13 PM

Hero= Button -1
MP raise= strong player, straight forward
LP call= no read, other than hasn't played too many hands
SB- complete donk
BB- loves the "half-in rule" regardless what he has.

10 handed live game at Dubuque Iowa- 4/8 with 4 rake.

MP= 6 SEAT, raises first to act
LP= calls
hero = K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], call
SB= calls
BB= calls

Flp 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Jack [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
MP= checked around to MP who bets
LP calls
Hero= raises
SB= calls
BB= folds
MP= calls
LP calls
turn= 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
checks around to me, I bet
SB= raises reprensenting the 2 (is possible)
mp- calls- most likely pocket pair hoping to fill up, possible flush, straight draw considering he was first to act pre-flop.
lp= folds
Do I raise here or just call,
most likely will be capped if I do????
Already looking at 14.5 BB before I act.

Harv72b · #2 02-13-2007, 02:29 PM

Just call. And river the straight flush so you can be sure you're good there.

Scansion · #3 02-13-2007, 02:39 PM

Can you elaborate, Harv72b? I'm curious about hands like these, with such a huge draw, why not jam the turn?

threads13 · #4 02-13-2007, 02:40 PM

Take your free card.

HoneyBadger · #5 02-13-2007, 02:44 PM

Why would you reraise the turn? Ridiculous. You should've taken the freecard on the turn anyway.

bravos1 · #6 02-13-2007, 02:58 PM

A strong, straight forward player raises in MP (is this EMP or LMP?) and is cold called by someone who "hasn't played too many hands".... I muck KQs quickly in this spot. The suitedness helps, but not nearly enough. You are toast against their hand ranges.

As played, take the free card on the turn.

gobbledygeek · #7 02-13-2007, 02:58 PM

Can someone help a noob out and explain why vs why not take the free card on this hand? Hero has 15 outs for straight/flush, not sure I'd count too many outs at all for K/Q, plus the board is paired. Using rule of 2/4 that's about 30%, so with 5 players in hand there is an edge, but that's assuming all 4 others stay in the pot, do I have that right? If only 3 stay in then edge is pretty minimal, and if only 2 stay in then there ain't no edge at all. I probably woulda taken a free card on the turn but I wasn't sure if this was weak and I shoulda been pushing my small edge.

Gclueless-0.035BB/hrnoobG

Harv72b · #8 02-13-2007, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate, Harv72b? I'm curious about hands like these, with such a huge draw, why not jam the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the obvious answer would be that you might be drawing to 2 outs to your straight flush. The next reason would be that, even if all of your flush/straight outs are clean, you need the pot to remain at least 3-handed for your bets and raises to have value...if you 3bet and SB then caps it, MP way well give up on his hand and leave you heads up. In that case, you have lost money with your 3bet and with the inevitable call of the 4bet.

I do not agree with taking the free card initially--you have no reason to suspect that the 2 helped anyone, and in fact it may have helped you by freeing up your overcard outs vs. a hand like JT. And, once again, so long as you have 15 clean outs (every reason to think you do at that point), your initial turn bet is for value when we presume that at least two opponents will call it. We just don't want to end up in a heads up pot at this point...plus just calling the turn check/raise may allow you to raise the river if your less obvious (straight) draw comes in.