Crosspost from MSNL: Cold-call river raise with bpnk

[Gamblor]

I'm crossposting this on the recommendation of a 2+2er. The stakes aren't high stakes, but it involved a complicated read that the MSNLers seem to want to ignore discussion of, instead responding with two word posts. "that's terrible" or "bad call"

UTG: He is a total lagtard but folds when he suspects hes beat, and rarely bluffraises. I watched him call allin preflop with AT, but also lay down AJ on a JT3 flop to a single big bet after getting reraised preflop. Will bluff-bet any street if he thinks he can bully people around.

UTG+1: laggy but solid player who is capable of reading hands to a degree and fears my game, but probably thinks I'm too tight but still very aggro.

5-5 NL live, 6 handed. UTG ($500ish) raises to $20, UTG+1 ($1500) calls, I ($900) call on the button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. BB calls.

4 to the flop ($80): T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG bets $30 UTG+1 calls, I call, BB folds

<font color="blue"> 1: The flop action tells me that UTG could have any two big cards or any pair. He is not creative enough to raise suited connectors. UTG+1 tells me with his call that he is drawing or has a pair. My flop action tells UTG nothing because he is a 1st level thinker but tells UTG+1 that I am drawing, because I should raise a good hand on a suited board with some straight draws and more than one villain. </font>

3 to the turn ($165): (T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, I check.

<font color="blue"> 2: The turn action tells me that UTG indeed has air. UTG+1 must bet the turn with any pair because he knows that there is a good chance that I am drawing, that UTG has A-high or something. So if he doesn't bet, he is drawing too. I probably should have bet here. Me checking the turn tells UTG that I either have a super-weak made hand that needs to improve to take a showdown, or am drawing as well (actually, both). Since I can fold to a cr, why wouldn't I bet the turn with a mediocre made hand? I in fact have bottom pair, no kicker, and an oesd. </font>

3 to the river ($165): (T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG bets $25, UTG+1 raises to $150. I call, UTG folds.

<font color="blue"> 3: This is the fun street. UTG bets because nobody has shown any strength and that's what he does when nobody shows strength. UTG+1 is a player capable of knowing this, so he raises. Now why would he raise if he has a hand that would beat UTG's air, probable A-high? The turn action tells me he had no pair from the analysis above. So he would raise for two reasons: as a bluff, or if he didn't want an overcall. But he thinks I don't have any sort of made hand because of my turn check; he therefore is not thinking about me anymore (spades or 98 didn't get there), but raised anyway! [b]He is therefore raising specifically to make UTG's Ace-high or baby pair fold.[b]</font>

I know it seems ridiculous at first glance to call a raise on the end with bottom pair and no kicker, but during the game and going through the thought process above it seemed like I was &gt; 50% to have the best hand, let alone the 2-1 or so I was getting.

[xorbie]

this is a horrible, horrible horrible post. please go brag elsewhere. in the future though, at least try to rationalize your horrible poker decisions better. for example, the following do not match up:

[ QUOTE ]

UTG: He is a total lagtard but folds when he suspects hes beat, and rarely bluffraises. I watched him call allin preflop with AT, but also lay down AJ on a JT3 flop to a single big bet after getting reraised preflop. Will bluff-bet any street if he thinks he can bully people around.


[/ QUOTE ]

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My flop action tells UTG nothing because he is a 1st level thinker

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Also...

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He is not creative enough to raise suited connectors

[/ QUOTE ]

how is that lag?

but then of course:

[ QUOTE ]
. Me checking the turn tells UTG that I either have a super-weak made hand that needs to improve to take a showdown, or am drawing as well (actually, both). Since I can fold to a cr, why wouldn't I bet the turn with a mediocre made hand? I in fact have bottom pair, no kicker, and an oesd.

[/ QUOTE ]

clearly UTG moves from one level to the next as the streets progress and will play the river on the 15th level. or maybe you're just making [censored] up because this is terrible.

[g-p]

i would rather reraise than call

[Gamblor]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a horrible, horrible horrible post. please go brag elsewhere. in the future though, at least try to rationalize your horrible poker decisions better. for example, the following do not match up:

[ QUOTE ]

UTG: He is a total lagtard but folds when he suspects hes beat, and rarely bluffraises. I watched him call allin preflop with AT, but also lay down AJ on a JT3 flop to a single big bet after getting reraised preflop. Will bluff-bet any street if he thinks he can bully people around.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
My flop action tells UTG nothing because he is a 1st level thinker

[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

An inconsistency i'll admit - he will put someone on a hand but has lots of gamble in him. better?

[ QUOTE ]

Also...

[ QUOTE ]
He is not creative enough to raise suited connectors

[/ QUOTE ]

how is that lag?

[/ QUOTE ]

lag does not require raising suited connectors, sir. By lag, you should understand that I mean he bluffs with a much greater frequency than most players. He will do so with random hands like 93o, T6s, not necessarily suited connectors. He will raise A9o from up front but not 87s.

Think outside the box: lag does not require a villain to have a good poker brain and raises with deceptive hands that have some value.

My description remains accurate and useful, if not articulated well.

[ QUOTE ]

but then of course:

[ QUOTE ]
. Me checking the turn tells UTG+1 that I either have a super-weak made hand that needs to improve to take a showdown, or am drawing as well (actually, both).

[/ QUOTE ]

clearly UTG moves from one level to the next as the streets progress and will play the river on the 15th level. or maybe you're just making [censored] up because this is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

typo.

honestly, who recommended you for mod?

[xorbie]

your description is actually useless. "this guy sucks balls" would have been better, or actually just post the hand because its fairly obvious.

and yeah sorry, but your play still sucks.

raise &gt; fold &gt; call.

[ QUOTE ]
honestly, who recommended you for mod?


[/ QUOTE ]

people who play poker better than you and thought i gave good advice.

[stealyourface]

going by your analysis, it seems likely he could have 3 5's here as well.

[Gamblor]

[ QUOTE ]
your description is actually useless. "this guy sucks balls" would have been better, or actually just post the hand because its fairly obvious.

and yeah sorry, but your play still sucks.

raise &gt; fold &gt; call.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok this might be useful. solid effort.

[ QUOTE ]

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honestly, who recommended you for mod?


[/ QUOTE ]

people who play poker better than you and thought i gave good advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

its a good thing youve got poker cause self-centred snots don't often do well when working with others.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]

its a good thing youre a self-centred snot who plays cards well cause there's no way i'd let you manage any actual human beings.


[/ QUOTE ]

i think it would be rather condascending and arrogant to say that i "manage human beings".

[PokerFink]

I don't think raising is better than calling. UTG+1's play looks like he either has air or trip fives, and there is a possibility he slowplayed a set or turned straight. Unless we think he can lay down trip fives or a straight, raising doesn't accomplish anything.

Disclaimer: If we think he can lay down trip fives or a straight, raising becomes an option, but I still don't like it and think a call is better.

fold&gt;call&gt;raise IMO.

[Ghazban]

Raise flop, win hand there, rake in chips.