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#1
12-11-2006, 02:28 PM
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on the issue of three betting dominated hands
In a recent post there was a lot of discussion about three betting dominated hands preflop. Personally, I much prefer calling with dominated but good hands preflop (obviously against players with high pfrs, and hands like KJ, QJ, etc). The reasons are fairly simple:
<ul type="square"> pros to three betting dominated hands preflop [*] A lot of the time you'll just take down the pot preflop . This punishes overly loose players for raising too often. Note that this has nothing to do with your actual hand[*] When you get called you can often take down the pot with a continuation bet postflop. Still nothing to do with your hand[*] When you get called your hand will be a favorite to win a large percentage of the time. Since Lags are apt to call you with suited connectors.[/list]<ul type="square"> cons to 3 betting KJ[*]you get your opponent to fold all those hands that you are dominating. Thus significantly reducing your equity when called. [*]When you flop a good hand and your opponent flops a good hand his hand will be much better. Since he is calling with hands that do very well when they hit against your range (suited connectors, pairs, AK, AQ)[/list] <ul type="square"> pros to calling[*] Your hand does very well against your opponents range and dominates a lot of the hands he is playing.[*] Your hand is a good bluff catcher[/list] I guess its really just a question of fold equity versus showdown equity. By just calling you are greatly increasing your chances of winning the hand at showdown. By reraising you are greatly increasing the chances you win the pot without showdown. In the games now people give a lot less weight to reraises. They call them with lots of hands and occasionally play back at them postflop. Thus you don't want to be reraising with hands that can't deal with heat postflop. However, people are also raising preflop with tons of hands. Thus folding a hand like KJ is a big mistake since you have a lot of equity against your opponents range. These two factors are what make me lean towards calling raises with easily dominated hands. Keep in mind, when you reraise the hands you get to fold are exactly those hands that you dominate. just my 2 cents. Please help me to understand these concepts better. 
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#2
12-11-2006, 02:59 PM
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Re: on the issue of three betting dominated hands
i agree with most of your logic...thing is, when calling a raise oop with a KJ type hand, you're not going to get to showdown very often, even though like you said, you would win a lot at showdwon against their opening range. too many times you're going to whiff the flop and just c/f to them...unless you want to get into the habit of calling down with king high... an argument can be made for leading into the pfr after calling thier raise oop, but again, they have position on you and they can control/manipulate the hand with that position even when you stab at it.
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#4
12-11-2006, 03:50 PM
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Re: on the issue of three betting dominated hands
[ QUOTE ]
In the games now people give a lot less weight to reraises. They call them with lots of hands and occasionally play back at them postflop. Thus you don't want to be reraising with hands that can't deal with heat postflop. [/ QUOTE ] wait what, youre saying only 3bet w/hands that "can take heat postflop" ? like what, just big aces and high PPs? wtf
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#5
12-11-2006, 04:00 PM
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Re: on the issue of three betting dominated hands
HOW TO PLAY PREFLOP IN NO LIMIT:
DO WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT AS LONG AS IT GENERALLY INVOLVES RAISING OR RERAISING [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
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#6
12-11-2006, 04:15 PM
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Re: on the issue of three betting dominated hands
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] In the games now people give a lot less weight to reraises. They call them with lots of hands and occasionally play back at them postflop. Thus you don't want to be reraising with hands that can't deal with heat postflop. [/ QUOTE ] wait what, youre saying only 3bet w/hands that "can take heat postflop" ? like what, just big aces and high PPs? wtf [/ QUOTE ] thats not true at all. small pocket pairs, suited connectors, Axs, Kxs all deal with heat very well. They can just fold (easily) or they can make moves with draws. Or they can get all in when they have a great hand. Note I did not say we only want to reraise with hands that can get all in postflop.
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#7
12-11-2006, 04:19 PM
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Re: on the issue of three betting dominated hands
[ QUOTE ]
i agree with most of your logic...thing is, when calling a raise oop with a KJ type hand, you're not going to get to showdown very often, even though like you said, you would win a lot at showdwon against their opening range. too many times you're going to whiff the flop and just c/f to them...unless you want to get into the habit of calling down with king high... an argument can be made for leading into the pfr after calling thier raise oop, but again, they have position on you and they can control/manipulate the hand with that position even when you stab at it. [/ QUOTE ] ok, so you whiff a lot with a KJ type hand. Occasionally you should be winning these pots anyways. so that somewhat mitigates the ev you lose because you're going to fold a lot. However, when you don't whiff. you can expect to take down a moderately large pot against an aggressive opponent. Its true that occasionally you should lose a large pot against your opponent. But occasionally you'll win a very large one too. (both of you will flop 2nd best type hands plenty against the nuts). I think the basic concept here is that by reraising with KJ, we're really turning a hand with legitimate value into a bluff.
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