One for the micros: A 6-max hand

[Entity]

Edit: I left my hand in place but put it in white in the event people want to do some handreading as well, which is not the primary point of this post but may provide some ancillary benefits. Feel free to post any guesses about my hand in white in your posts preceding your thoughts about the hand.

I'm not sure how useful this hand will be to the micros, but I thought it was an interesting hand that I played in my last session.

10/20 6max. Folded to me on the Button, and I raise <font color="white"> Ks Kc </font>.

The SB, who is 38/12/1.5 filtered for 6-handed play, calls. He's relatively unknown at this point but seems somewhat aggressive, and capable of some trickiness but in general is too loose and pays off a bit too much. He's far from what I'd call a terrible player, but he's certainly got a long way to go if he's trying to be top-notch: he's definitely a loser in the game right now.

The BB folds and we see a flop of J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. He checks, I bet, and he calls.

The turn is the 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. He checks, I bet, and he raises. I call.

The river is the 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. He bets, and I raise in tempo.

I had a pretty clear plan on the hand at the time and definite reasons why I played it this way. It could be right or wrong (I've only quizzed one of my other friends who says he plays it the same).

Curious about what reasons y'all see for me playing the hand like this and what other ways I might play it that you might recommend. Keep in mind when posting that 10/20 is going to be a more aggressive game than most of you are accustomed to, at least to an extent, but it's not necessarily maniacal. Like most other hands I post or things I write, I'm interested in hearing your thought process on this one -- handranges, etc., definitely come into play. Hopefully this doesn't seem too useless to y'all. I'll post responses in a bit.

Rob

[Jim14Qc]

in FR I think you have good chances of being beaten by a flush.

in 6-handed, maybe QJ, JT, AJ or another pair with at least one high spade. I'm not too sure though since most of the 6-handed experience I have is at .25/.50 where I would have expect no more than A high with this pattern...

[davelin]

(First off, I took a look at your hand)

Entity/Rob,

Personally in the heat of the play I'd probably play it the exact same way but instead of raising the river I'd probably just call down. But I don't doubt your raise here is correct and finding spots like this is probably the difference between being a break-even and a winning play at these levels.

Pre-flop, flop and turn bet is of course extremely standard. When he check-raises your turn bet. You have to still think of yourself as a favorite against his range. He most likely has paired the board with the A or even the Q of spades (or perhaps not even that, hoping to push you off a hand like AK or AQ with a c-bet on the river.) In smaller degree does he have something that beats you here.

So given we believe we are a favorite it seems like a natural play would be to 3-bet the turn. However doing that and subsequently betting the river, a lot of hands won't call that we would like to call. Just calling the turn in position puts the pressure on Villain to bet pretty much almost all of his holdings, nothing on the river says that we don't still have the majority of his range beat. So we raise, and get a call from top pair or even middle pair who can't themselves to fold for one more.

Close?

[MrWookie]

Hmmm. This is an interesting one. I haven't peeked at hero's cards. Knowing Entity, his range starts with any two cards 8 and higher, any PP, any A, most K's, any two connected cards 5 and higher, and suited one (maybe two) gappers 4 and higher. I really can't think of any hands in that range that wouldn't fire at that flop when checked to, either. HU, it's just too appealing to cbet and try to take it down with what is the best hand or not.

The turn, though, we can narrow things down a shade. I think some weak hands with a weak spade will check. Qx8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Kx9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], maybe a weak combo draw like T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8x or Tx8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I think complete trash might fire again against a player prone to peeling the flop loosely, but not the turn. The price of the bluff is pretty good. We should note, though, that there aren't a whole lot of these hands in hero's range. I don't think he steals with 34 often. Hmmm. Yeah. Really, most low card hands in his range either have at least a gutshot or were too crappy to make the cut. I think 98 with no spades checks here. What about a hand like KQ w/ no spade? That's a toughie. Against a looser, more passive opponent, it's best to check behind and fold the river if he bets. But against this guy, it's hard to gauge from the post how much we fear the c/r here. I think I'll call it a toss up between whether it bets or checks. Same with A2, no spade. So what are we left with?

Any A, K, or maybe Q of spades, any J, any 7, any set, J7, 76, any flush not made of cards that completely suck, and sometimes A2, K6, A6, KQ, and any A or K not yet mentioned. Calling the raise, though, eliminates some of these last hands. KQ is gone, naked A's and K's w/o spades are gone, I don't even know if A2 w/o a spade can call this against this villain, and calling down with 6's and 7's is pretty marginal. I think we also can rule out any flush here. There are too many reasons to 3bet now rather than getting fancy. Sets and two pairs might call and raise either a boat+ or a non-[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] river. Any J is obviously calling here, too, as is any overpair, which might also elect to wait. AA-QQ with a spade, though, might 3bet now. I think 98 with one spade is possible here.

At the river, I think any J with a kicker weaker than A is just calling. Thus, we're looking at J7, 76, AJ, 22, 77, 66, JJ, AA-QQ with no spade, or 98 with one spade. I'm going to go peek at hero's cards to see if I'm any good at poker, and then I'll write up about villain's hand.

[MrWookie]

Well, I'm not all that bad at poker. I guess I would have 3jacked the turn holding trump, but I see the argument about being somewhat more likely to scare him off with a turn 3bet than with a river raise. I still think, though, that if he has a made hand, we're getting two bets out of him pretty often. If he has a draw, or if he has us beat, it's pretty much a wash, unless we were planning on folding to a river 3bet.

[jrz1972]

I would have played this hand the same way you did, except I would have just called the river.

Let's think about what SB has. We know he's aggressive and tricky. We assume he's not calling preflop with total cheese (aside: why no 3-bet?), but it's not like his preflop call really narrows his hand down much. His flop call doesn't tell us much, as he'd at least peel the flop with all sorts of stuff. The turn c/r means he has *something*, but a known aggro/tricky player could be doing this with any pair, any strong draw, or possibly with air though that's a little on the maniacal side even for 6-max. For instance, A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] might play this way. So might 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. So might 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Given the c/r on the turn, villain is presumably leading the river every single time, so that doesn't do much to narrow his hand down either.

Villain's range is obviously pretty broad, so I guess you figured you were ahead of enough of his range to make putting in one more raise a good play. You opted not to do so on the turn because you didn't want to charge yourself for your [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] draw if you were in fact behind, and you figured the river was reasonably safe enough to stick that last bet in.

Am I close on this? I'll admit I don't entirely get your line.

[milesdyson]

i thought 98 with a spade until i saw this:

"I had a pretty clear plan on the hand at the time and definite reasons why I played it this way."

ok now i looked at your hand.

i know you're folding to a river 3-bet and you probably would have shown down if you 3-bet the turn and got capped. so your line probably saves you bets when he actually has a better hand on the turn and makes the same when you have the best hand. although there's something to be said about your chance to suck out on the river if you get capped on the turn (so the bets you lose on the turn arent "full" in essence).

if he were better (like he would give up on the river with a bluff/semibluff or he would be able to make a decent fold), i would not like your line.

[NIX]

Most of what I've learned about 10/20 shorthanded and higher I've picked up from reading Miles's NC posts of him firing away with air/bottom pair, seemingly all the time.

Based on the lines that Hero and Villain took, my hand ranges are:

<font color="white">Hero: TJ, QJ-AJ with a spade kicker, maybe 98 with 1 or 2 spades or AQ-AK, KQ with 2 spades.
Villain: TJ, QJ-AJ, 7x, 89, 9T, 8T, all with a spade</font>

With those ranges in mind, I don't mind the line at all if you know that Villain is going to be aggressive enough to first bluff/semi-bluff the turned flush and bet the river with anything.

I have two questions though. Are you planning on folding to a river 3bet (if you don't have a flush)? If he's prone to calling light on the river, I'd imagine he'd call your raise with a lot of hands that can't beat a top pair type hand, but is he tricky enough to reraise light? Second, if you have a strong spade draw yourself, is it worth raising the turn instead of the river? I don't know how often he floats the flop with nothing but a lone spade (unless it's with a straight draw around the J/7), so I'd expect him to have some sort of a hand there. If he has the straight draw, he's not calling a river raise unless he hits, so you still pick up a lone bet from there as well as two bets if he calls you on the river with his made hand/missed flush draw. This gives the same profit as your line. If he is semibluffing the spades though and you have a big spade yourself, especially the ace, you give yourself the opportunity to collect an extra bet or two if the flush comes in and he check/raises the river giving you the chance to you 3bet.

Looking at your hand now, I'm kinda happy with myself for not being too far off.

[bennyhana]

<font color="white"> I'm guessing you have AJ-JT, or 88 99 TT, 89 maybe</font>

I'd like to know how this vilian is reacting to your play, or others at the table in general. Has he seen you steal a few times.

I would guess a tricky player would be check raising some draws, and with 2 spades, he might be thinking you would fold a better hand to the river bet.

I think a player who pays off a bit too much is kind of vague when making the river raise if you are UI.

Interesting. After peeking, I'm not sure.

[jmardo]

i would have played it the same way, but it does sound like he hit the flush on the turn.