Calling flop bet with weak pot odds (due to BB = 2 * SB)

[gobbledygeek]

(maybe this thread is similar to recent one regarding implied odds)

Lately I've been wondering if I'm folding to a flop bet a bit too much; I've posted two made up examples of these situations. In both cases the pot odds aren't even close to what I need; but now I'm thinking the implied odds might make these a call due to big bets being twice as much as small bets (and therefore I can easily make up the bets I need in order to make these calls profitable).


EXAMPLE 1: No Set No Bet (maybe...)

Preflop: (10 players) Hero is button with 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
3 calls, Hero calls, SB raises, BB folds, everyone else calls

Flop: (5 players, 10 SB) A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB bets, 3 callers, Hero...

Hero is getting 14:1 to call here which is nowhere near the 22:1 he needs. But is this call? I'd have to make up 8 SB which is only 4 BB, which I should be able to make up on the turn alone if I spike my 4.


EXAMPLE 2: Chasing the gutshot...

Preflop: (10 players) Hero is button with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 callers, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks

Flop: (5 players, 5 SB) A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB bets, one caller, Hero...

Ignore the rightness/wrongness of preflop Hero play (I'm just trying to create an example here). Hero is only getting 7:1 here, nowhere near the 10.5:1 he needs. But again, I only need to make up 3.5 SB which is a measly 2 BB, so this is a no brainer call, correct?


I guess the point is that I suppose these are the types of situations where you can make some pretty weak flop calls due to BBs allowing you to make up for needed SBs? But I'm also guessing position to the better is extremely important here? In these cases, I'm closing the action; I suppose in cases where I'm first to act after the better they are easy folds and a sliding scale from there? For example, would the above be calls if I was one off closing the action? And obviously I guess the texture of the board also dictates the play (i.e. the chances of my made hand likely being the best)?

I'm pretty sure SSHE has a blurb on this which I might have to re-read, but I just want to make sure I understand this stuff.

G-0.3BB/hrnoobwhoisrunningextremelyhotlatelyG

[sean c]

gobbledygeek,

You are thinking about this correctly but i think it will be tougher than you think to make up the bets your trying to make up in both hands. Also remember making up just those bets gets you back to a nuetral EV. You want it to be positive EV.

In hand #1 the pot is big people peel liberally in large pots asuming your going to get 3+ villians to pay you 2BB on the turn here is probably a little optimistic.

In hand #2 you are in a small unraised pot that someone very well could have just been stabbing at on the flop.

[James.]

1)closing the action with no real draws i would call. if you spike your innocuous two outer there's 14sb in the pot now and we may win as many as 30sb by the river.
2)my rule for gutshots on the flop: if i'm getting 6-1 closing with assurance it's good if i hit it and the opponents will pay a couple big bets on the later streets i call.

the important thing is the board textures(no flush draws, etc.), the opponents, and CLOSING THE ACTION. see, this is a spot your odds are better than they appear as you are not playing on unless you hit on the turn.
edit to say: note in hand one you will often have the opportunity to raise the field given you position relative to the flop bettor. also, keep in mind in both hands you may get to the river for that sb a portion of the time it gets checked to you.

[gobbledygeek]

Would anyone make these peels without closing the action? What if there is only one person to act behind you, is it work the risk or is this read dependent? With 2+ players still to act are these autofolds?

[Jiggymike]

[ QUOTE ]
Would anyone make these peels without closing the action? What if there is only one person to act behind you, is it work the risk or is this read dependent? With 2+ players still to act are these autofolds?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the first hand I would be pretty skeptical about calling even if closing the action. If I was pretty sure that the players would stick around for another BB and that anyone with an A would play aggressively, I MIGHT call here. If I was not last to act I would throw it away unless I was pretty sure the players behind me were too passive to raise anything that didn't have me crushed (i.e. a higher set).

Hand 2 would be easier if you raised it preflop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Actually with only 2 other players I would limp also, maybe with 4 limpers I would build the pot. In any case, I think a call here is a bit better than the above call. That K is most likely going to help someone, giving them two pair or a pair and a 4-out straight draw on the river. You only need to make up a few bets and with all those high cards out there I think you are good because someone else should bet, allowing you to raise.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
Would anyone make these peels without closing the action? What if there is only one person to act behind you, is it work the risk or is this read dependent? With 2+ players still to act are these autofolds?

[/ QUOTE ]

it ALL depends on the risk of a raise behind you when you aren't closing the action. discretion is the better part of valor in these spots.

edit to throw in that if there is a reasonable chance your hand isn't going to be good if you do hit, these are folds. hopefully you know this.