Misclick flop raise, scare card hits on turn

DrewOnTilt · #1 08-29-2006, 12:18 AM

Villain in this hand is fairly loose - 42/16/38 WTSD. I have not seen him get out of line much postflop, though he does tend to show down a bit too much with weak pairs.

I didn't mean to raise the flop - I meant to peel/fold the turn unimproved (though the raise would not terrible with my overs and backdoor draws). Then a scaryish card hits so I bet. Decent bet, or spewy given my read on him?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, MP calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP bets, Hero raises - misclick raise, meant to just call, SB folds, MP calls.

Turn: (7 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets...

wackjob · #2 08-29-2006, 02:17 AM

er, is your PF play standard? A guy raising 16% first in, even 5 handed, has you dominated alot.

After that, I think the entire hand is fubar and your opponent is going to showdown regardless so your bet is very thin at best.

Hoi Polloi · #3 08-29-2006, 11:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
er, is your PF play standard? A guy raising 16% first in, even 5 handed, has you dominated alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. On the button, I would consider cold-calling as I already have the button and good multi-way hand. Depends on raiser's range but 16% puts OP at the bottom of his range.

Hoi Polloi · #4 08-29-2006, 11:58 AM

My policy on misclicks is to play what I represented. I like the turn bet as long as you can fold to a raise. Given your flop raise villain can be checking because he thinks he can c/r you with his just paired A or he thinks he's behind especially with the A.

NH.

BTW: who are you beating up? An opponents, a dealer, your gf/bf, your mom, an innocent by-stander? Just curious. This assumes you're on top.

Ray Of Light · #5 08-29-2006, 01:03 PM

Preflop: With the villian raising preflop 16% of the time, he simply isn't raising enough (for a shorthanded game) for me to want to 3-bet isolate him with QJs. Make his preflop raising percentage around 25% or more, and that reraise would be more appropiate. Thats my take on it...

Turn: Based on the misclick raise on the flop, your turn bet is a good one. He has shown that he has the ability to fold (with a 38% WTS) and you can get away easily if he calls your turn bet (especially without any obvious draws on the board).

londomollari · #6 08-29-2006, 01:11 PM

Isn't this flop raise fairly standard? Pot is getting big, free card, clean up outs etc.

Ray Of Light · #7 08-29-2006, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this flop raise fairly standard? Pot is getting big, free card, clean up outs etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right.

I wouldn't 3-bet QJs preflop in that spot at all. However, since the OP 3-bet it preflop, he might as well keep representing a big hand. And if the villain in the hand is quite passive on the flop, then raising the flop here will give you a much better chance at winning this big pot.

Also, I am putting the villian in this hand on a pocket pair, something like TT (maybe JJ with his timid preflop raising %), simply because he raise/called PF; then followed it with a bet out/call on the low card flop. I would have a better idea of what he may have if I knew what his postflop aggression factors were...

So, to the original poster, what did he have in the end? How did it play out?

DrewOnTilt · #8 08-29-2006, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, to the original poster, what did he have in the end? How did it play out?

[/ QUOTE ]

The world will never know. He donked a blank river and I folded.

DrewOnTilt · #9 08-29-2006, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BTW: who are you beating up? An opponents, a dealer, your gf/bf, your mom, an innocent by-stander? Just curious. This assumes you're on top.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gah, tell me you've never seen the movie Office Space? That's Michael Bolton beating up a printer.

StellarWind · #10 08-31-2006, 04:22 AM

Preflop decision seems pretty marginal. I wouldn't do it unless I thought his steal standards were looser than normal for a 16% PFR.

Seems like a clear flop *fold* with the SB sitting behind me. Calling is second best. Raising (as some posters are advocating) is ridiculous.

The problem is the overcard outs are quite bad. Not only are you vulnerable to domination but you have a serious problem with reverse domination by the likely split pair that just bet in front of you. You can say you don't believe Villain has hands like Q9, J9, Q7, and J7 but then the preflop play is just wrong.

There are also serious issues related to straights. You have a backdoor straight draw but if you actually pick up a straight draw your overcards will completely melt and your hand won't really be that much better. On the other hand if you turn top pair you'll be the one sweating out the straight redraws on the river.

Relative position is very important. Heads up this is an acceptable flop call that I would probably make in spite of everything I just said. But the SB sitting behind you changes everything. You might have to pay two or three bets to see the turn. Or he could quietly call and preserve his positional advantage. Picking up a little something on the turn and walking into a checkraise (or check3bet) would be extremely unpleasant.

Don't play marginal flop second to act. Practicing this one rule would do wonders to improve the game of most decent players.

I don't like the turn bet either. This is not really a scare card because your flop play is representing an overpair rather than a big ace. He probably has a pair, it isn't going away, deal with it.

Another possibility is he has a straight draw. In that somewhat unlikely case betting (for value!) might be ideal but checking should work pretty well too. He'll assume your check shows an underpair to the ace and checkfold the river unimproved because you cannot be bluffed. So you take the free showdown and QJ is the best hand.