2 mid pr on 4th, best line?

[Todd]

Any thoughts on the best way to play this hand? Please don't say fold third. There was minimal 3d raising, and frequent 4th checking.

Thanks,

T


7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.50 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (2.80 SB)

Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (3.40 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (5.40 BB)

Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks

River - (5.40 BB)

Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: (7.40 BB)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot $14.80 | Rake $0.50

Seat 7: [5d 4d Ac Jd Js Td Th] (two pair, Jacks and Tens)

</font>

[Bartholow]

I don't think there is much you can do here. I would have checked 5th even.

[Jeffage]

Sorry, but - fold third. With two overs behind you and an ace limping in front of you (yes, I see the other one), it's an easy muck. As played, I don't bet 5th street into that many people after the guy pairs his jack.

Jeff

[Chris Daddy Cool]

check 5th street. you may or may not have the best hand, but your equity is not that great even if you are ahead of the open jacks PLUS the two player to act after you.

[Andy B]

Check fifth. Probably fold the river.

[cgrohman]

Eh. I don't mind the bet on 5th that much. It is pretty much guaranteed to get the pot heads up as seats 5 and 6 have to be afraid of both you (who is betting into open jacks) and the dude behind them who has the open jacks.

Also, I think it is unlikely that his 2 pair is currently behind given that no one has shown any strength. If you get check raised or called in multiple places, you can be done with the hand.

If I have played the hand like you have so far, I probably bet 6th. He may give you credit for a huge hand and let it go. It also enables you to check behind on the river for the same price.

However, given that Andy and Jeffage consistently give better advice than me, take this with a grain of salt.

[Wahoo73]

BLUF: I hate the kind of hands you have on 4th street. More often than not, I lose with them. However, I seem to have the most success in check-raising these types of hands on 4th street.

Obviously, the key to making two early small-medium pairs have a good chance to hold up on the river is to get the hand heads-up as quickly as possible and I have found that betting out on 4th street does not accomplish that nearly as often as check-raising.

And what if nobody bets on 4th to give you the opportunity to raise? Then you play 5th street accordingly, plus it makes it much easier to get rid of the hand if the board suddenly turns very scary.

[Bartholow]

Who are you planning on check-raising and who are you planning on knocking out?

[Wahoo73]

In this case, obviously I'm hoping that either seat 5 or seat 6 bet. Seat 7 has already displayed weakness by checking and so I might reasonably expect him to fold to a check-raise. Furthermore, in this case if you are able to get a check-raise in on 4th street, your opponents should put you on either trip 8s, two pairs or a strong open-ended straight draw. Therefore, any card on 5th street that appears to improve one of these three hands should also help narrow the field if it still needs narrowing. And indeed, Todd's 6 on 5th street does exactly that.

Now let's examine what probably happens if you check 4th street and seats 5 and 6 both check behind. In this situation, when seat 7 catches his open pair of Js on 5th street, he now almost certainly bets out since everyone displayed weakness on 4th street by checking. Yet, you can be reasonably certain that all seat 7 has is the open JJ, given his weak play up to this point. Therefore, if this happens, I'd raise seat 7's bet, causing the other two players to fold. Seat 7 then has to decide what it is that I have to make me suddenly raise. I suspect his natural inclination given limping-in on 3rd and checking 4th would be that I either had pocket 66 and now had trips or that my 6 on 5th street filled an inside straight draw. Regardless of what hand he put me on, he'd have to assume that my raise meant that I was ahead of JJ. Hopefully, he'd fold, but if not it would set me up for free card(s) on 6th and/or 7th street.

I'm not suggesting that this is the scientifically correct or mathematically sound way to play these small-mid two pairs hands that I make on 4th street. However, for me it has proven in actual game play to work better than any other tactic I've tried.

[Bartholow]

My problem with the checkraise is your position. If seat 5 bets, you aren't facing anyone with 2 cold to force them out. If seat 5 checks, then seat 6 bets, seat 7 still isn't faced with 2 bets. Seat 5 now DOES have to call 2 bets cold, but given that he checked 3rd to act his hand should be really weak anyway, so he'd probably fold regardless.

In other words, in this case I think you'd be better off betting and hoping for a raise than trying to checkraise if you want to really force ppl out.