Bubble Trainer and SNGPT

Comatose · #1 08-22-2006, 03:36 PM

My question pertains to SNGPT and this Bubble Trainer. My understanding of the methodology is that these calculators only allow 1 caller. Thus, it would seem that they are both of limited value if the game is not heads up or 3-handed. Am I mistaken about this? Certaintly these calculators would be bad for pushing into a heavy field wouldnt they?

Thanks,
Comatose

ajmargarine · #2 08-22-2006, 03:45 PM

/chuckle

FYI, sngwiz, similar to sngpt accounts for the possibility of multiple callers behind you.

rvg72 · #3 08-22-2006, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My question pertains to SNGPT and this Bubble Trainer. My understanding of the methodology is that these calculators only allow 1 caller. Thus, it would seem that they are both of limited value if the game is not heads up or 3-handed. Am I mistaken about this? Certaintly these calculators would be bad for pushing into a heavy field wouldnt they?

Thanks,
Comatose

[/ QUOTE ]

It actually doesn't make as much of a difference as you would probably expect UNLESS there is a very short stack and you are likely to have multiple callers. Multiple calls from bigger stacks are rare (probably around 1-2% with you and two other big stacks going all in) and you still have a chance to win so the net result is a very small change in ev.

rvg

loxxii · #4 08-22-2006, 04:03 PM

Say stacks are even at around 7-8BB, there are 2 MP limpers, and you have KJo in the SB. Do you go ahead and push this like you would if there were no limpers?

If so, not doing this is probably a major leak of most low limit 2+2ers including myself.

Comatose · #5 08-22-2006, 04:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My question pertains to SNGPT and this Bubble Trainer. My understanding of the methodology is that these calculators only allow 1 caller. Thus, it would seem that they are both of limited value if the game is not heads up or 3-handed. Am I mistaken about this? Certaintly these calculators would be bad for pushing into a heavy field wouldnt they?

Thanks,
Comatose

[/ QUOTE ]

It actually doesn't make as much of a difference as you would probably expect UNLESS there is a very short stack and you are likely to have multiple callers. Multiple calls from bigger stacks are rare (probably around 1-2% with you and two other big stacks going all in) and you still have a chance to win so the net result is a very small change in ev.

rvg

[/ QUOTE ]

Have these differences been carefully assesed for various situations? I mean, what is the value of something like SNGwiz if there is minimal impact?

Comatose

rvg72 · #6 08-22-2006, 04:07 PM

I would usually push this unless the first limper is tight and aggressive - if so I fold because often enough he has a very good hand to make this -$ev. But usually, push.

But... this is a different question than the OP. In your case you are much more likely to have multiple callers since two people already expressed some interest in playing the hand vs random hands to your left in an unopened pot.

rvg

loxxii · #7 08-22-2006, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]

But... this is a different question than the OP. In your case you are much more likely to have multiple callers since two people already expressed some interest in playing the hand vs random hands to your left in an unopened pot.

rvg

[/ QUOTE ]

I see, in that case is he not mistaken? I think SNGPT's capacity for entering a calling range for each player behind you is its way of handling the possiblity of multiple callers, no?

alvaroaze · #8 08-22-2006, 04:48 PM

No. It only uses the second % when the first guy folds. So if you put 15% and 10%, 15% of the time 1st will call. When this happens, second never calls. 85% of the time 1st folds, then second calls 10% of those times.

rvg72 · #9 08-22-2006, 04:48 PM

The problem is that SNGPT will only calculate ev based on the first caller. For example, even if you set everyone to 100% call, only the first call will be evaluated and everyone else will fold in the SNGPT calculation. My point was that in most cases this is ok since the chance of two large stacks calling you is very small - even if you had 0% chance to win it would not affect ev by a large amount. The fact that you do win sometimes makes it pretty much negligable UNLESS you are in a situation where more than 1 caller is extremely likely. In this case SNGPT does not give you a true ev.

EDIT: By the way, I have no idea if Bubble Trainer works the same way. I thought I recall Pergesu saying it did evaluate multiple callers but sure about this or how it does it (given that the second callers range will be so much tighter if there already was a caller)

rvg