Good hand or good luck (3/6 LO8)

[adenosine]

I was playing in a local card room yesterday at 3/6 LO8, and a hand came up that I still question if I was doing the right thing. Any comments on my play would be greatly appriciated, as I'm still new to the game.

I'm playing in the big blind of a kill pot. The table is full of very passive players who will call you to the river with inferior hands, but generally they tighten up a small amount pre-flop with kill pots.

I'm dealt A 3 3 6 suited spades. I call a raise from a very loose player before me to see the flop. About 5 people end up seeing the flop.

Flop comes 3 9 J two hearts and a diamond.

The small blind bets, I raise. I know I can't get the low drawers out of the pot (they don't know the meaning of the word fold), but I figure I can make them pay to go for the low. Everybody calls.

Should I have been worried about 99xx or JJxx here? Both would have me drawing dead. I was prepared to throw my hand away if I got a reraise, but it didn't come.

Turn comes a black 10. SB checks, I bet, everybody calls. Should I have been worried here that somebody just made their straight?

River brings me a 10 of diamonds. I bet, everybody calls. Should I have been worried about 10 3 or a somebody who had a better set (seeing as I had bottom set), or would they have most likely reraised me? Should I have checked and seen if anybody did bet? I did have the fowest full house, and I would have had no way to know if somebody later bet with a straight, a better full house, or nothing.

What should I done differently here, if anything?

[kurto]

I tell you... reading this post tells me why I don't like limit. This hand plays much different in PL.

I'm not a limit expert so take my thoughts with a spoonful of salt. But here's what I think-

1) bottom set is horrible. In some ways its even worse in limit because, even if its the best hand, you can't bet enough to push anyone out. As you can see by this play, there is almost no way to know where you're at in this hand or if your hand is any good.
2) Why are you only concerned about the low drawers? You have 2 other sets, a flush draw and a straight draw to worry about. Any straight draw/flush draw even top two pair is hanging around and a threat to you.
3) "Should I have been worried about 99xx or JJxx here? Both would have me drawing dead. I was prepared to throw my hand away if I got a reraise, but it didn't come." That doesn't mean much on the flop. People like to trap. People are passive. Some like to wait another street to start pushing. But to answer your question... you should always worry about it. Especially with 5 people to the flop.
4) "Turn comes a black 10. SB checks, I bet, everybody calls. Should I have been worried here that somebody just made their straight?" you have 5 players out there who are still calling. Seems the odds are pretty good one of them has a straight.
5) "River brings me a 10 of diamonds. I bet, everybody calls. Should I have been worried about 10 3 or a somebody who had a better set (seeing as I had bottom set)," Yes.

I have to amend my post a little- obviously with 5 people calling every bet, you're playing with a bunch of morons. Clearly that flop didn't hit all 5 people and certainly all 5 people are unlikely to have anything at the river. As dumb as these people must be, it may very well be profitable to continue to bet in situations like this if they'll always pay you off with nothing. Since no one's ever raising, its quite conceivable that you were ahead at every step of the way. But, its hard to imagine that all your opponents are all so dumb to call every street without some kind of hand. If I knew my table wasn't complete idiots, I would think this is a situation where the only people calling me are people who have me beat. At the river you have 6th nuts. It just seems so unlikely the way the hand played out that they all called and you weren't beat.

I blathered a lot-- With bottom set, (at least in PLO8) in a hand with a lot of players, you really want to win it on the flop and shut down or, possibly chuck it immediately if there's a lot of action.

On the turn, unless the table is bluffable (clearly this table is calling no matter what), there's really no point in betting the turn. multiple straights just got there, you're still vulnerable to a flush draw and, you have bottom set.

Why bet the river? There are so many hands here that are beating you that are calling? If the table is as passive as it seems, why not check (the turn and the river, at the least)

People who play limit may totally contradict me, but I would never play bottom set this way against 5 people, out of position... especially after that turn and river.

[adenosine]

I'm glad that I'm not insane in thinking I should've played bottom set differently (especially after my questionable low was destroyed on the flop). I thought during the hand that I had the best of it on the flop going forward, but that may have been me getting a little worked up over a very large pot, plus I was frustraited that I had several super premium hands busted by terrible flops.

I find it very hard to put people on hands with those players because they will raise with very little and call with nothing. I have played some pot limit, and in general I find it much easier to determine if I am holding a winning hand or not. However, I'm even worse at it than limit omaha.

Anybody else want to weigh in?

[wiseheart]

Bottom set on a two flush board is almost
always a money loser for me in the online
3/6 game. It is kind of opponent dependent.
I defently don't hate your line, because
you never got raised. Most of the time when
someone has a higher set they are going to
raise the flop. Playing it like you did, I
would check/call the river, saving a bet
againts a raise and giving trip 10's a chance
to bluff.

The more I think about it, I think in these
situations, Im going to flip a coin, and if
it comes up heads, ill play your line, and
if it comes up tails, ill check/fold.

[Gar Pike]

This is what you get, playing around with tachy cards.

I think PF and flop were OK, but I would have been very leery about putting in any more money after the turn card. People in lo-limit B&M games seem to think JT combos are right up there with cleanliness, godliness and sliced bread.

By your description of the table mode, expecting somebody with a better hand to raise seems a bit optimistic, doesn't it?

If you won, I'd say you got lucky. However, by betting, you might have kept yourself from being pushed out by a worse hand.

I think I would have check/called single bets, and been amazed when MHWG.

Regards

Gar

[StrikeR300]

I don't play much limit, but bottom set & a bad backdoor low draw on a 2 flush 2 high board in a 5-way pot = Cheese. Saying all that I believe PF is fine, but you have to fold this flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Should I have been worried about 99xx or JJxx here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Those are the least of your worries (although it's possible), especially with passive CS's that'll play OESD's & Bare NFD's & 2 Pair hands & Naked Nut Lows.

FTW, I'm guessing you lost to a JT.

[adenosine]

Thank you for your input on this hand. The more I think about it, the more I realize that caution would've been in order.

However, I say it was 'good luck' because I indeed did take down the pot with the boat.

[redmarion]

Long term bottom set is a looser, looser, looser.

You just got lucky you were playing with idiots. Congradulations on table selection (alto, I think that was random luck also).

Table full of <@(((())))><

[jcx]

As prev said bottom set is not good. I occasionally play in a low limit game similar to yours in my local casino. Is it also a jackpot game? My casino has a jackpot game with 4 of a kind 5's as a qualifier. The reason that is important is many of the donks at your table are there actively trying to win the jackpot (stupid as it may sound) and will play any PP 5's or higher no matter how junky the hand. This dawned on me one day when I threw some trash hand like 779J into the muck preflop and accidentally revealed my hand. Two people at the table (employees of the casino no less!) got borderline indignant with me for mucking a pair that could potentially lead to the BBJ. Since that session I have adjusted my play and unless I have top set or a very strong draw I play very cautiously. Experience will teach you to toss those 3's in the muck after some donk hits a set of 7's on the river to beat you.

[T50_Omaha8]

I think you played the flop fine. Even the most passive people will reraise with top or middle set, especially on a draw heavy board. Anybody who is sophisticated enough in skill to attempt to trap would realize how horrible a play calling with top set is here to "disguise" it against a worse set. Getting payed off an extra BB or two from your bottom set is his last concern when several people are just calling along with draws they should have to pay heavily to see. I'm putting the flop bettor on J9 or maybe A24J or Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. And if a donk had JJ, he would probably think "me have best hand....must bet". I would raise here so you don't just go into call mode, learning nothing about bettor's hand--if you HAD been reraised, and then layed it down, you would save yourself a BB over just calling to the river.

Check the turn--you've gotta think you're beat. If someone behind you bets and causes a lot of folds, then call. But if several people call a bet by the last position, fold. If a bet were to get you, say, HU or three handed, your full outs would probably be live, but more callers boosts the likelyhood of someone having a better set (leaving you drawing to 1 out) or two pair (eating up 6 of your ten outs). Since you actually bet here, though, this is a moot point.

Check the river. Donks (playing JT here) love to checkraise their miracle full on the river, thinking nobody expects them to have the hand. Little do they know the board pair is a scare card to everyone else, and most other made hands just want to see a free showdown. Your thin bet here in most situations will tend to cause worse hands to fold, decreasing the payoff, and leave yourself open to checkraises, which may happen somewhat often. It is often very unprofitable to bet the river with fairly strong hands you think are probably the winner--but are nowhere near the nuts. The times you win you'll get very little action, and the times you lose you'll get lots of action. Since you don't appear to be in last position, the possibility of a raise (not a CR) still exists. The way to play your fairly-strong river spots is to check/call--it's way better than getting raised and losing 2 BB. If it gets checked around and you have the winner, good for you--many of those hands would have folded to a bet anyways. If someone after you bets, you would have had been trapped into calling their raise anyways if you HAD bet, so just call. And here a late position bettor stands a chance of being on a stone bluff, whereas a raise on the river is almost never on a bluff.

This situation is extraordinary because the people seem to be SO bad. I can't figure out 4 or so separate hands that would actually call with on this river and lose to three's full. But this was a good hand AND good luck. Your three's full wasn't TOO lucky--you probably had pretty good equity the whole time. You were lucky that all these idiots bloated a kill pot with seemingly terrible hands. By the way, did anyone show their losing hands? The sraight must have been out there.