Party 0.50/1.00 - TP = easy fold?

feroder_zb · #1 07-28-2006, 03:56 PM

The table in general is tight and I'm giving the two EP limpers some credit for better than junk hands, FWIW.
Looking for confirmation this decision. As the action lies I think its a clear fold, as I'm putting at least one of the aggressors on QJ or KJ.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 raises, Hero??

Now a bigger question in my mind is how should my action change if the action is instead as follows?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB raises. UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 raises, Hero??

Now the pot is 2x the size as in the first case and I still have TP - should this now be a 3-bet? My thinking is the pot is large and there is some chance that I have the best hand (plus about 5 outs for my hand to improve) - its time to protect my hand. Please correct me if I'm misapplying concepts or just way off.

kerowo · #2 07-28-2006, 04:01 PM

With the flush draw on the board you can't protect your hand very much from that. Have you seen MP1 raise a flush draw before? A 3-bet here may get rid of UTG+2 and the rest of the field. Reads would be nice though. I'd probably call and raise a non-club turn.

Bodizapha · #3 07-28-2006, 04:30 PM

I'd toss the first hand, mainly because the pot is small. You have a decent hand, but the pot is small, so why call 2 bets.

I like a raise on the second hand. Pot is big, so you should be looking to win. Slow down if you get reraised though.

ericyp · #4 07-28-2006, 05:00 PM

Really? I'm a newb just trying to learn too, but unless I had a read on MP1 as very loose, I'd fold the first hand. I don't think he'd raise 2nd pair or worse, and with our poor kicker the only J hand we beat is J8 downwards, which unless this guy is known to be loose, I also don't think he would've played PF.

In the 2nd hand, I'd probably call, and if BB 3 bets, fold. Is this incorrect?

dchz · #5 07-28-2006, 05:09 PM

well since the monster tables have sucked out all the n00bs, it's definitely nice to give these people some credit

anyways, hand 1 seems like a call and re-eval on turn for me, since these people are tags, what makes you think he's not raising on a flush or straight draw?

hand 2 seems like a case of reverse implied odds if you do already hold the best hand, there is no telling if someone has a set, 2pair, etc where you are drawing dead, and your hand isn't that good in a multiway, i'd fold..

scratch that, i misread hand 1, the hand is also a fold, TP on this board is no good IMO, sorry for the mix up

Hielko · #6 07-28-2006, 05:11 PM

I fold both hands.

Hand 1; obvious fold.

Hand 2; You have TP, but facing a bet and a raise the probability that one of them has at least the J is very big, and when thye have the J you are almost always outkicked. The flushdraw makes things even worse.

dchz · #7 07-28-2006, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I like a raise on the second hand. Pot is big, so you should be looking to win. Slow down if you get reraised though.

[/ QUOTE ]

this does go along the lines of slansky saying playing big pots aggressively, but since the pot is so big, the raise will not protect your hand, so the raise is not for protection, the raise can't be reliable for information either, and the raise isn't for value cause i seriously doubt you have the best hand/enough equity,

so why would you raise the 2nd hand?

feroder_zb · #8 07-28-2006, 05:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I like a raise on the second hand. Pot is big, so you should be looking to win. Slow down if you get reraised though.

[/ QUOTE ]

this does go along the lines of slansky saying playing big pots aggressively, but since the pot is so big, the raise will not protect your hand, so the raise is not for protection, the raise can't be reliable for information either, and the raise isn't for value cause i seriously doubt you have the best hand/enough equity,

so why would you raise the 2nd hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

forcing BB and UTG to call 3 cold is not protecting the hand? The pot lies at 13.50 SB, and if I 3-bet they'll be getting 16 to 3 to call, or a little better than 5 to 1. This should be enough to get them to fold any overcards, gutshots, etc, which is all I'm ever looking for when protecting a hand. As far as info goes, I never raise for information - spending bets to better your read is just backwards poker and almost never +EV since the "reads" you get are often unreliable.