Common mid-pair situation in position

[bilbo-san]

here's a situation that's been giving me fits. This is an actual hand but I don't have a lot of reads on villain other than he is too loose and a bit aggressive. Definitely a bad player, but not a huge donk.

When you have a pair like TT-KK and an overcard falls AND a flush draw is possible, are you more inclined to double barrel, or to check the turn to pick off a bluff if the river blanks?


Texas Hold'em $1-$1 NL EuroPoker.com 6-handed
Hero has ($210.50) and covers table.

PRE-FLOP
UTG Hero bets $4 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], folds around, SB calls, BB folds.

FLOP [3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
SB checks, Hero bets $7, SB calls $7.

TURN [ 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
SB checks, Hero checks.

<font color="blue">Bet here because of the drawy flop?</font>

RIVER [ 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]
SB bets $10, Hero folds.

<font color="blue">Do you call here if the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] does not show up?</font>

I'm beginning to think the thing to do is to bet the turn, then check behind on the river (and/or fold to any bet), since it is so hard to tell if a bet on a blank is value betting the A or bluffing the flush.

Do you folks agree? If so, how much do you bet?

Or do you just give up on these hands entirely?

[EMc]

In his well thread, yvessaint recomends betting these types of hands for value. Im still lukewarm on the idea, but I do like a double barrel on this board.

[Isura]

turn check is fine. control the pot and induce a bluff. your wa/wb to an ace, and a missed flush draw will often bluff the river. call a non-heart river.

[c_strong]

[ QUOTE ]
turn check is fine. control the pot and induce a bluff. your wa/wb to an ace, and a missed flush draw will often bluff the river. call a non-heart river.

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QFT. Since this is HU on the flop, I'm not too worried about giving a free card on the turn, although I still think it's right to fold to his river bet when the heart hits, as now you're behind most hands that would lead the flop.

[DONTUSETHIS]

[ QUOTE ]
QFT. Since this is HU on the flop, I'm not too worried about giving a free card on the turn, although I still think it's right to fold to his river bet when the heart hits, as now you're behind most hands that would lead the flop.

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The villian did not lead the flop, he check called, but I still think that you call a non heart river. I think you call a non heart river even if you will see Ax a lot from donkeys in this spot.

[adgsc1524]

Can someone explain the reasoning of checking the turn and calling the river? If we bet the turn, don't we give the villian another opportunity to fold and get a free showdown...rather than giving a free card and calling on the river?
I want to go to showdown in this situation, but also want to bet the turn

[c_strong]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone explain the reasoning of checking the turn and calling the river? If we bet the turn, don't we give the villian another opportunity to fold and get a free showdown...rather than giving a free card and calling on the river?
I want to go to showdown in this situation, but also want to bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

We check the turn to lose the least when behind and win the most when ahead.

If we knew villain had two hearts we would definitely bet the turn, but he normally won't (and when he does he'll only hit 20% of the time). It's more likely that he has some other hand he saw fit to call the flop with. If we bet the turn, Ax or better will certainly call. 7x or a lower PP to our tens will normally fold to a second barrel. JJ-KK may just fold but these are a tiny part of his range given no reraise preflop. So basically hands that beat us call and hands that we beat fold.

If we check behind, a lot of PPs, 7x etc. will either bet the river or be more likely to call a river bet, putting us on a bluff with missed broadways or whatever. We don't mind giving these hands a free card because they have so few outs against us. We only want to bet (at most) two streets with TT on this board, and it's generally more profitable to bet or call a bet on the river after checking the turn, than it is to bet the turn.

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can someone explain the reasoning of checking the turn and calling the river? If we bet the turn, don't we give the villian another opportunity to fold and get a free showdown...rather than giving a free card and calling on the river?
I want to go to showdown in this situation, but also want to bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

We check the turn to lose the least when behind and win the most when ahead.

If we knew villain had two hearts we would definitely bet the turn, but he normally won't (and when he does he'll only hit 20% of the time). It's more likely that he has some other hand he saw fit to call the flop with. If we bet the turn, Ax or better will certainly call. 7x or a lower PP to our tens will normally fold to a second barrel. JJ-KK may just fold but these are a tiny part of his range given no reraise preflop. So basically hands that beat us call and hands that we beat fold.

If we check behind, a lot of PPs, 7x etc. will either bet the river or be more likely to call a river bet, putting us on a bluff with missed broadways or whatever. We don't mind giving these hands a free card because they have so few outs against us. We only want to bet (at most) two streets with TT on this board, and it's generally more profitable to bet or call a bet on the river after checking the turn, than it is to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess my problem with this is that we are turning every WB hand into a 10-13 outer (because all the WB hands have 2-5 outs to improve, but also get to steal the pot when the third flush card hits. This effectively turns TT-JJ into a pretty damn marginal hand.

I haven't done the math to figure out if betting the turn (and having those WB hands fold, but charging flush draws) is better or not, though.

Thoughts?

[bhudson]

The way I do this is I try to judge the % chance he is on a draw and if I strongly believe so I go ahead and bet the turn.