I have Faith

Borodog · #1 01-19-2006, 09:12 PM

I find the endless threads about free will versus determinism tiresome and irresolvable. The same with the associated randomness threads. And then it suddenly occured to me, I have Faith!

I have Faith in free will. I cannot prove that I have free will. The closest I could come is argumentum ad ignorantium, which is clearly fallacious and I am always quick to snap people off for, so it's no proof at all.

Yet I am utterly convinced that I have free will. If I don't it's a fantastically good illusion. I have Faith.

So this is what it's like.

Zygote · #2 01-20-2006, 01:49 AM

i dont have faith in free will. probabilistic determinism still leaves no room for free will. ...and, yes, the illusion is very good!

Lestat · #3 01-20-2006, 02:00 AM

Don't get me started on this AGAIN! I can't comprehend understand determinism and I'm not sure I ever will.

I get the part that it all started with the big bang and now every single result afterward is the cause of an antecedent event. I got that. (I think).

So even the neurons in my brain are the agents of causal effect and beyond my control Wait, I have no control, because there is no control. It's all been set in motion and will be what it will be.

So if I can't accept that I can't control my life... That I can't change myself... That I can't make adjustments tomorrow ... To not be a drug addict... To excerise... To be too lazy to exercise, etc. etc. Am I resorting to the same faith as a theistic believer would?

I do have faith that I am master of my fate. I can do whatever I want tomorrow. Does this mean my axioms are in direct conflict with atheism?

Zygote · #4 01-20-2006, 02:12 AM

first tell me what "I" is.

if you mean your body and everything inside, then, i think you'd be interested to know that there are competing genes, with different interests, within you!

madnak · #5 01-20-2006, 02:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So even the neurons in my brain are the agents of causal effect and beyond my control Wait, I have no control, because there is no control.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is your error. Of course you have no direct control over your brain mechanics, but you do have plenty of indirect control over them. Imagine something, remember something, think about something. Every time you do, you change your brain chemistry in a measurable way.

But this is a leap many people make. "The future is defined by causal events, therefore I have no control over it." This doesn't logically follow. That the mechanics of your control are physical and causal doesn't in any way diminish the fact that you have control.

On the contrary. The fact that your actions will have causal effects throughout the future of your life (and of the universe itself) indicates that your actions are extremely significant.

Let me put it another way. Some "artistic" people I've spoken with have said something along the lines of, "science is very depressing. After all, science says that sunlight is just radiation, that human beings are just collections of atoms, and that the Earth is just a giant rock." I would really, really like to know something. Where do they get the "just" part from? Yes, sunlight is radiation. But it's not just radiation. It's also warmth, the source of life, a symbol of illumination and divinity, and much more. Humans are composed of atoms - but we aren't just atoms. We're also living breathing beings with feelings and thoughts and the capacity for wonder and compassion and almost infinite diversity. The earth is a giant rock, but it's not just a giant rock. It's also home.

The reductionistic view is just one perspective. It's not the "only" perspective. Every aspect of an entity can't necessarily be described by a purely mechanical-reductionistic approach. I believe the deterministic perspective is valid. Our actions are predetermined events. But they aren't just predetermined events. They are also representations of our will (whether or not it is free), and extensions of our minds, and reflections of our fears and desires, and mechanisms of our responsibility or even faith. None of those facts are contradictory. There is no indication that our actions are less meaningful because they are predetermined. After all, even if the future is based on the past, we don't know what it's going to be. We are fortunate enough to live in the present. So we don't need to feel trapped by the past or the future.

yukoncpa · #6 01-20-2006, 05:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i dont have faith in free will. probabilistic determinism still leaves no room for free will. ...and, yes, the illusion is very good!

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Zygote,
I, like Lestat, am a fan of your posts and yet I don't understand what you are saying here. With probabilistic determinism nothing is certain, anything could happen, though not with equal probabilities. I also have faith in free will just because it seems natural to me. I define "I" as my consciousness, which I believe allows me to have free will. I know free will can neither be proven nor disproven, but why is it that theists ( I'm not including you here) are adament that we don't have free will?

Kurn, son of Mogh · #7 01-20-2006, 09:43 AM

Sure, we have free will. So do the other 6 billion people. So did everyone that came before us. Thus the net result of all the free will interactions create sets of circumstances that mimic determinism.

Sort of like the chapter in Barry Greenstein's book where he postulates that had Chris Moneymaker arrived at Binions to register for the '03 ME 5 minutes earlier or later, in all likelihood nobody would have ever heard of him.

soon2bepro · #8 01-20-2006, 11:00 AM

Both Zygote and madnak are right.

yukoncpa: Suppose a situation where you had 6 different choices to make was to be determined by the outcome of the roll of a 6-sided die. Would you say you had free will in making this choice?

edit: theists don't believe in free will? I don't think that's correct

etgryphon · #9 01-20-2006, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't get me started on this AGAIN! I can't comprehend understand determinism and I'm not sure I ever will.

I get the part that it all started with the big bang and now every single result afterward is the cause of an antecedent event. I got that. (I think).

So even the neurons in my brain are the agents of causal effect and beyond my control Wait, I have no control, because there is no control. It's all been set in motion and will be what it will be.

So if I can't accept that I can't control my life... That I can't change myself... That I can't make adjustments tomorrow ... To not be a drug addict... To excerise... To be too lazy to exercise, etc. etc. Am I resorting to the same faith as a theistic believer would?

I do have faith that I am master of my fate. I can do whatever I want tomorrow. Does this mean my axioms are in direct conflict with atheism?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why people like the Wheeler-Feynman Theory...Not very elegent but explains a lot.

There is such a thing as functional perception. If you believe like Borodog does that you have free will, then act in that manner understanding that it might not be true just like Newtonian Physics and Quantum Physics. Newtonian Physics are incorrect, but they are CORRECT in a vast orders of magnitude in the practical realm so we use them knowing that it is not correct.

Its easy to do...For the theist and the atheist. The only thing you have to work on is the attitude that some people have that determinism allows them to do whatever because it was all predetermined. My response to that is they should not be surprise by the predetermined response to their actions.

-Gryph

Lestat · #10 01-20-2006, 01:53 PM

That's a very good way of looking at it. Basically what you're saying is that even if everything is predetermined it doesn't matter. It doesn't make anything less meaningful. Things are still not predictable (a big problem some people have with determinism), etc. That's fine and I think I can hold the same view. But I want to know...

I have an important business meeting tomorrow morning. one of two things will happen:

1. I will get up early, shower, eat breakfast, and arrive at my meeting 5 minutes early eager and prepared to do business.

2. I will wake up and say, "I don't feel like going. I'll call them and hopefully they'll re-schedule.

It is now the day after tomorrow and one of these two things have already happened. Are you saying that when I woke up on the morning of the meeting, the result was already determined as I now know it to be the day after the meeting? In other words, when I woke up the day of the meeting, I had no choice whether or not I would attend. I may have thought I had a choice, but I was going to do whatever I did anyway.

Determinism does make some sense to me, but MAN!... It's so hard for me to accept.

How do I teach my kids the importance of study habits, work ethics, even having goals, or going to college, etc.? How do I convince them they can be whatever they want to be, if I can't convince myself of the same? Why should I make goals if it's already pre-determined whether or not I'll achieve them? Etc. etc.

Btw- I'm not debating. I think I'm coming around to the idea of determinism. I just don't like it even with your best view on it.