An article on moderate Islam

[vulturesrow]

Morocco's King Aims To Build a Modern Islamic Democracy

From the article:

Morocco's 42-year-old King Mohammed VI has discovered religion as a means of modernizing his society -- and progress through piety seems to be the order of the day. By granting new rights to women and strengthening civil liberties, the ruler of this country of 30 million on Africa's northern edge, which is 99 percent Muslim, plans to democratize Morocco through a tolerant interpretation of the Koran.

Found a link to this article on Marginal Revolution , and here is a direct link to the relevant post:

On the evolution of religion

[DVaut1]

There are some here in this forum who are going to find your OP absolutely ridiculous.

Expect lots of links to FrontPage and plenty of Ibn Warraq quotes. There are some here who seem to have alot invested in beleiving there's no such thing as moderate Islamic state, and shouldn't take your OP lightly.

[New001]

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There are some here in this forum who are going to find your OP absolutely ridiculous.

Expect lots of links to FrontPage and plenty of Ibn Warraq quotes. There are some here who seem to have alot invested in beleiving there's no such thing as moderate Islamic state, and shouldn't take your OP lightly.

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So if you're on a one-lane highway, coming up to a rabid dog... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Thanks for the link.

[DVaut1]

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So if you're on a one-lane highway, coming up to a rabid dog...

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Clearly, the answer is to carpet bomb the dog with nuclear weapons, and any other dogs in the vinicity, be they rabid or not, for failing to stop the rabid dog.

Besides, all the dogs we're referring to are naturally rabid, be they showing the signs of the disease or not.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
There are some here in this forum who are going to find your OP absolutely ridiculous.

Expect lots of links to FrontPage and plenty of Ibn Warraq quotes. There are some here who seem to have alot invested in beleiving there's no such thing as moderate Islamic state, and shouldn't take your OP lightly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it is a convenient meme to take advantage of within the conservative movement but given that I had some very positive experiences with classmates of mine in college who were exchange students from Middle Eastern countries (Lebanon and Jordan to be exact, along with a few others that I wasnt as familiar with) sort of puts that whole line of reasoning to bed. Funny story on how I initially got to be very friendly with one of those guys. My first summer at the Naval Academy, we were sitting down for our very first meal and the Jordanian was sitting across from me. The meal was BBQ pork. I noticed he was about to take a bite of it and told him that he shouldnt do that. After I got yelled at for speaking without permission, I explained that he was Muslim and wasnt supposed to be eating pork. He was able to get an alternative lunch from kitchen and all was good. He was very appreciative of the fact that I stopped him before he ate it. The same Jordanian also became very friendly with a Jewish guy from New York that was another friend of mine. Funny how the world turns sometimes.

At any rate, my digression aside, as a Christian I am well aware of the ways in which my religion has been misused and mischaracterized, and its only fair that I should do whatever small part I can to point out the same when I see it in regard to Islam.

It's a hopeful article, and it sounds like the King of Morocco is making a step in the right direction.

As I've posted before, Islam desperately needs a Reformation, and something on a parallel with what the West underwent during the Enlightenment period. As the article suggests, the West (or Christianity) has had hundreds of years to prepare for modernity, while Islam has recently had modernity thrust upon it.

Hopefully the King of Morocco will succeed, and hopefully the world will see more and other leaders and people trying to reinterpret Islam in a manner more compatible with human rights, religious freedom, women's rights--and with the non-Muslim world.

The challenge will actually be greater than the challenge that faced the West and Christianity prior to its own reform and renewal. This for several reasons: ideological, cultural, and that the times now are very volatile and dangerous and confrontational. However, widespread access to information and to the internet offers a chance for ideas to propagate more quickly (ideas both good and bad).

A very progressive Canadian Muslim, Irshad Manji, has an interesting website you might like to take a look at.

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/

The challenge of reform should not be underestimated, but it is a hopeful and progressive step in a better direction (a large step for Morocco, probably; a smaller step on Middle Eastern or world scale). Kudos to the King of Morocco based on that article. Hopefully too other religious and state leaders may follow the lead. Great things sometimes start small (but again, don't be so optimistic as to underestimate the overall challenges, which are truly immense).

[DVaut1]

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Well it is a convenient meme to take advantage of within the conservative movement but given that I had some very positive experiences with classmates of mine in college who were exchange students from Middle Eastern countries (Lebanon and Jordan to be exact, along with a few others that I wasnt as familiar with) sort of puts that whole line of reasoning to bed. Funny story on how I initially got to be very friendly with one of those guys. My first summer at the Naval Academy, we were sitting down for our very first meal and the Jordanian was sitting across from me. The meal was BBQ pork. I noticed he was about to take a bite of it and told him that he shouldnt do that. After I got yelled at for speaking without permission, I explained that he was Muslim and wasnt supposed to be eating pork. He was able to get an alternative lunch from kitchen and all was good. He was very appreciative of the fact that I stopped him before he ate it. The same Jordanian also became very friendly with a Jewish guy from New York that was another friend of mine. Funny how the world turns sometimes.

At any rate, my digression aside, as a Christian I am well aware of the ways in which my religion has been misused and mischaracterized, and its only fair that I should do whatever small part I can to point out the same when I see it in regard to Islam.

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A few things:

1) Let's not pin that meme on the whole conservative movement. To President Bush's credit, he's been (I think) sincerely refuting such notions.

2) Those who believe in said meme will point to those Muslims you knew, and the experiences you had with them, as mere anomalies. According to them, your friends (and the Moroccan government) don't adhere the 'true' nature of Islam, and the 'true' nature of Islam is extreme, ergo moderate Muslims are de facto non-Muslims. It's circular logic you can never refute -- so while I certainy agree with everything in your post(s), and while I have great respect for your will to do good ("its only fair that I should do whatever small part I can to point out the same when I see it in regard to Islam"), it will all be for naught in the end.

[SheetWise]

It'll be interesting to see a tolerant interpretation of all of the infidel rhetoric, and how it applies to Israel.

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There are some here in this forum who are going to find your OP absolutely ridiculous.

Expect lots of links to FrontPage and plenty of Ibn Warraq quotes. There are some here who seem to have alot invested in beleiving there's no such thing as moderate Islamic state, and shouldn't take your OP lightly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it is a convenient meme to take advantage of within the conservative movement but given that I had some very positive experiences with classmates of mine in college who were exchange students from Middle Eastern countries (Lebanon and Jordan to be exact, along with a few others that I wasnt as familiar with) sort of puts that whole line of reasoning to bed. Funny story on how I initially got to be very friendly with one of those guys. My first summer at the Naval Academy, we were sitting down for our very first meal and the Jordanian was sitting across from me. The meal was BBQ pork. I noticed he was about to take a bite of it and told him that he shouldnt do that. After I got yelled at for speaking without permission, I explained that he was Muslim and wasnt supposed to be eating pork. He was able to get an alternative lunch from kitchen and all was good. He was very appreciative of the fact that I stopped him before he ate it. The same Jordanian also became very friendly with a Jewish guy from New York that was another friend of mine. Funny how the world turns sometimes.

At any rate, my digression aside, as a Christian I am well aware of the ways in which my religion has been misused and mischaracterized, and its only fair that I should do whatever small part I can to point out the same when I see it in regard to Islam.

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Vulturesrow, just so you know: DVaut1 has repeatedly mischaracterized my views and positions on this forum, and that is the reason I have him on ignore. If you would like to discuss my views please do so directly with me.

As far as your young Muslim friends go, I am not at all surprised. I don't think all Muslims are extremists or that all Muslims take the Koran literally--or even that all Muslims even really know what it says. There are of course a great many nice and tolerant Muslims. Don't confuse my putting the ideological basis of Islam under scrutiny, or my views about terrorists, with what I think of Muslims in general. As far as I am concerned, most Muslims are just people whose major concern is trying to live their lives in a manner so as to be reasonably happy--which is pretty much the goal of most people around the world regardless of creed anyway.

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It'll be interesting to see a tolerant interpretation of all of the infidel rhetoric, and how it applies to Israel.

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There are indeed many troublesome verses in the Koran regarding treatment of infidels, and that is one reason (amongst many) why a genuine "Reformation" or "Enlightenment" movement for Islam will face great challenges.