Live 2-7 - oddly played going into the 3rd draw.

[*TT*]

Live 2-7 triple draw game. Opponents include InWithTheBest, his girlfriend (who seems to be a solid player but its her first live game), and the Poker MD.

Poker MD opens, I call with 236 in the BB. we both draw 2.

I check, he bets, I call knowing he didn't improve - and I was right. I catch 8T and see from the corner of my eye that he is going to bet so I decide to deviate my standard plan - I check call and stay pat knowing he will break 8765x or worse - and I'll bet the river if he draws. And I was right, he breaks a 9 and shows, so I bet the river.

[Jigsaws]

Funky.

But what are you trying to do by betting the river? Fold out a 9 if he makes it again? Or do you not want to show down your T8 so he'll keep breaking a 9 against you.

[press.gang]

i don't like it. i wouldn't break a smooth 9 there and after you pat i may even put in a value bet on the river. more likely is he had a pair of nines. a smart player can probably put you on exactly what you have and could really exploit you. the only way this play would make sense is if you also c/c'd all your rough 8s which in order to do you would have to give up too much value.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Funky.

But what are you trying to do by betting the river? Fold out a 9 if he makes it again? Or do you not want to show down your T8 so he'll keep breaking a 9 against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both. I now know he will break a 9 or worse which means he is unlikely to call with 976xx on the river, and the meta value of not having to show will pay off in spades in a live game, I can confine to bluff at pots picking them off if I know this is possible.

I forgot to mention that I said when I announced I was pat "Thats what I get for checking in the dark, I missed a bet". Of course I didnt check in the dark, but the villain didn't seem to notice the difference.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't like it. i wouldn't break a smooth 9 there and after you pat i may even put in a value bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

you might want to rethink putting in a valuebet there, its not a winning play vs me. Vs some other opponents it has some merit, but you gotta have a good understanding of their range or its futile.

[ QUOTE ]
more likely is he had a pair of nines.

[/ QUOTE ]
nope, I know this opponent well enough to know he MIGHT keep a clean nine, but is breaking a dirty 9 for sure.

[ QUOTE ]
a smart player can probably put you on exactly what you have and could really exploit you. the only way this play would make sense is if you also c/c'd all your rough 8s which in order to do you would have to give up too much value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not making this play vs an opponent who will make tough showdowns, you gotta know who you are playing with. I very rarely make this play, its 100% read specific.

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]
a smart player can probably put you on exactly what you have and could really exploit you. the only way this play would make sense is if you also c/c'd all your rough 8s which in order to do you would have to give up too much value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Your hand looks exactly like 98-T7 basically, being weighted toward the T end.

[press.gang]

[ QUOTE ]

you might want to rethink putting in a valuebet there, its not a winning play vs me. Vs some other opponents it has some merit, but you gotta have a good understanding of their range or its futile.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm never going to let you take this line and get to a free showdown. you will always have to face a bet. against my range there when i pat behind (9 or better/snow) you're -equity and i'm sure i VB lighter than any regular poster on here and i'm quite sure that it is a winning play.

[ QUOTE ]

nope, I know this opponent well enough to know he MIGHT keep a clean nine, but is breaking a dirty 9 for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough.

i play my draw games differently from any other poster on here and as such am a little reluctant to share different ideas (ex: i wouldn't break a 9, but if i did i would raise you on the river 100% of the time, until you'd adjusted to my game, and then i'd play the river pretty optimally i think) which deviate from the standards because i recognize that they must seem ridiculous.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

you might want to rethink putting in a valuebet there, its not a winning play vs me. Vs some other opponents it has some merit, but you gotta have a good understanding of their range or its futile.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm never going to let you take this line and get to a free showdown. you will always have to face a bet. against my range there when i pat behind (9 or better/snow) you're -equity and i'm sure i VB lighter than any regular poster on here and i'm quite sure that it is a winning play.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is precisely my point. I am not about to make this play unless I feel I can exploit an opponent's tendencies. Try value betting the river with me and your going to learn rather quickly that my hand range is a lot thinner than you imagined it to be, if I feel your capable of putting in a bet where it doesn't belong, I'll look for spots to trap you for two bets with my play because the meta value pays off in the long run - IF I feel your thinking f course (its a pointless play if your not a thinking player). I'm far too tricky, be very careful [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[TMTTR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

you might want to rethink putting in a valuebet there, its not a winning play vs me. Vs some other opponents it has some merit, but you gotta have a good understanding of their range or its futile.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm never going to let you take this line and get to a free showdown. you will always have to face a bet. against my range there when i pat behind (9 or better/snow) you're -equity and i'm sure i VB lighter than any regular poster on here and i'm quite sure that it is a winning play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Against a nit (like TT [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) or even an experienced player who makes frequent mistake (like me [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]), betting a 9 (particularly a rough 9) on the river after pat-pat is a money losing play. Of course, there are many people that wander into a 2-7LD game without a clue and might call you with a T8 or even a J.

[ QUOTE ]
i play my draw games differently from any other poster on here and as such am a little reluctant to share different ideas (ex: i wouldn't break a 9, but if i did i would raise you on the river 100% of the time, until you'd adjusted to my game, and then i'd play the river pretty optimally i think) which deviate from the standards because i recognize that they must seem ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I don't want to start psychoanalyzing a newb, but if your ideas "seem ridiculous", they probably are. Making "ridiculous" moves can win you some pots in the short term but if you play with any observant player for more than a few rounds, it is going to kill you. For example, not breaking a rough nine on the third draw against TT staying pat (assuming you have observed his play) would be the wrong move at least 80% of the time -- and breaking it and then popping it without improving on the end would be more ridiculous spewing.

I would recommend that you share your "different ideas" and see if they stand up in the heat. That is what the forum is for. Do you think the players here all know who you are and will use it against you?

[press.gang]

[ QUOTE ]

Against a nit (like TT [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) or even an experienced player who makes frequent mistake (like me [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]), betting a 9 (particularly a rough 9) on the river after pat-pat is a money losing play.

[/ QUOTE ]

at this point we're going to be discussing meta. but check-calling after i draw and then check-calling the river is going to be a far bigger loosing play. if you don't check raise me after the second draw w/ a pat hand you're going to be giving up too much value.

i just woke up so i'm having difficulty putting it in words, but i think i'll be able to play to well when you take this line.

as for VB of the 9: i bluff tons and tons of rivers until my opponent understands what's going on, and typically they have difficulty realizing that i've switched gears, and then i start value betting my 9s and Ts pretty liberally. it's just the way i like to run the table.

[ QUOTE ]

Now I don't want to start psychoanalyzing a newb, but if your ideas "seem ridiculous", they probably are.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wanted to point out that they will seem ridiculous, and for sure you guys might see them as such, but i'm quite sure that they are not. they are different than the standard thoughts typically shared about the game, but i'm positive they are money winners.

[ QUOTE ]

Making "ridiculous" moves can win you some pots in the short term but if you play with any observant player for more than a few rounds, it is going to kill you.

[/ QUOTE ]

i need observant players for a lot of my plays to work. when i've switched a gear and am one step ahead of my opponent he might as well play w/ his cards face up.

[ QUOTE ]

For example, not breaking a rough nine on the third draw against TT staying pat (assuming you have observed his play) would be the wrong move at least 80% of the time -- and breaking it and then popping it without improving on the end would be more ridiculous spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think i've played w/ TT, but if he's willing to check/call w/ an 875xx here (a play i hate), then i agree. i think TTs range in this spot is almost exactly the hand he has, and i also know that he's capable of bet/folding. if he doesn't know what i'm capable of and an 875 isn't in his range, then it's for sure the correct play.

[ QUOTE ]

I would recommend that you share your "different ideas" and see if they stand up in the heat. That is what the forum is for. Do you think the players here all know who you are and will use it against you?

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldn't start posting on a forum to go "hey, i have all these great ideas but i'm not gonna share them." [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] i don't mind if they don't stand up in the heat.