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#1
04-01-2007, 05:15 PM
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NL 25, when to slowplay your sets?
I am having some trouble getting action on my big hands. I am not a complete nit, I do raise + cbet a decent amount, and my bets / cbets (well, 99% cbets and 1% when I have a real hand...) get raised from time to time, so that's not my point here...
I mean I very rarely slowplay trips or sets when there is any flush draw or straight draw possibilities on the flop. Either I raise or 3bet BIG. I know the common thinking here seems to be to fast play them, but I don't seem to get good results and at the same time I see everyone else slowplaying them and stacking opponents nicely. 90% of time fastplaying kills the action and leads to me winning a smallish pot on the flop, unless my opponent has a monster too. I feel like I am missing value from my better hands. Is this a leak, should I think that risk/reward ratio against one opponent is good enough to wait until turn? I mean, one opponent + lets say flush draw => are the odds of a) he has the flush draw and b) turn is the flush card so small, that it is acceptable to let him see the turn in hope of a bigger pot? Some examples http://www.pokerhand.org/?957535 http://www.pokerhand.org/?957556 http://www.pokerhand.org/?957563 http://www.pokerhand.org/?957571 I see that on the last hand I check-raised the flop, I guess bet-3bet out would be an option. It's just frustrating to lead out and pick the pot up right away (seems to happen often), and its guaranteed that each time roles are reversed I get check-raised. 
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#2
04-01-2007, 06:02 PM
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Re: NL 25, when to slowplay your sets?
Just call on hand one, re-raising is stupid
Why the F are you minraising hand 2. Standard flop. I bet more on the flop as standard, like 2.5. That's a slowplaying opp because it's very unlikely he hit a Q, and if he hit a 5 or 2, who cares. I usually bet it though, because I'm cbetting that with air enough times. C/R the flop on the last hand is horrendous. Bet out.
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#3
04-01-2007, 06:12 PM
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Re: NL 25, when to slowplay your sets?
Here's how I would play them. I tend to play a lot of hands and so Villians might react differently and that might affect which line is correct.
1) When Raised on flop, call. Wait for turn bet and then push. 2) Slowplay it and try get him committed - not many cards you're afraid of here. 3) Bet less - maybe 2/3 of pot. You want flush draws to come along because if the board pairs and flush draw hits you'll stack him a very large percentage of the time. Plus this sized bet looks more like a continuation bet to villians at these stakes and he might get fancy with nothing and check-raise you. If he has nothing there isn't much else you can do. 4) Lead out and if raised call. If brick hits turn check-raise him if he's aggressive/depending on read. If you think he's drawing and/or will check behind lead out again on turn but not for too much - you have re-draws against his flush and not only that you will stack him if he hits it and board pairs. Flop check-raise might be better if you don't donk the flop a lot or you check-raise with air sometimes as villian will be suspicious if not.
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#4
04-01-2007, 06:31 PM
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Re: NL 25, when to slowplay your sets?
Interesting comments, thanks. It seems I may be missing a ton of value. Better start working on these ASAP...
Basically it seems that you are not that worried about flush draws, and protecting you hand on the flop by pricing out draws...? [ QUOTE ] 1) When Raised on flop, call. Wait for turn bet and then push. [/ QUOTE ] Does a club on turn change anything? [ QUOTE ] 3) Bet less - maybe 2/3 of pot. You want flush draws to come along because if the board pairs and flush draw hits you'll stack him a very large percentage of the time. Plus this sized bet looks more like a continuation bet to villians at these stakes and he might get fancy with nothing and check-raise you. If he has nothing there isn't much else you can do. [/ QUOTE ] I guess I am so paranoid about flush draws etc., because I don't know what to do when they hit. What do you do if called on flop and a heart turn (not two)? Bet? -what if raised big? [ QUOTE ] 4) Lead out and if raised call. If brick hits turn check-raise him if he's aggressive/depending on read. If you think he's drawing and/or will check behind lead out again on turn but not for too much - you have re-draws against his flush and not only that you will stack him if he hits it and board pairs. Flop check-raise might be better if you don't donk the flop a lot or you check-raise with air sometimes as villian will be suspicious if not. [/ QUOTE ] Again, what's the plan on turn if a heart falls?
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#6
04-01-2007, 07:14 PM
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Re: NL 25, when to slowplay your sets?
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting comments, thanks. It seems I may be missing a ton of value. Better start working on these ASAP... Basically it seems that you are not that worried about flush draws, and protecting you hand on the flop by pricing out draws...? [ QUOTE ] 1) When Raised on flop, call. Wait for turn bet and then push. [/ QUOTE ] Does a club on turn change anything? [ QUOTE ] 3) Bet less - maybe 2/3 of pot. You want flush draws to come along because if the board pairs and flush draw hits you'll stack him a very large percentage of the time. Plus this sized bet looks more like a continuation bet to villians at these stakes and he might get fancy with nothing and check-raise you. If he has nothing there isn't much else you can do. [/ QUOTE ] I guess I am so paranoid about flush draws etc., because I don't know what to do when they hit. What do you do if called on flop and a heart turn (not two)? Bet? -what if raised big? [ QUOTE ] 4) Lead out and if raised call. If brick hits turn check-raise him if he's aggressive/depending on read. If you think he's drawing and/or will check behind lead out again on turn but not for too much - you have re-draws against his flush and not only that you will stack him if he hits it and board pairs. Flop check-raise might be better if you don't donk the flop a lot or you check-raise with air sometimes as villian will be suspicious if not. [/ QUOTE ] Again, what's the plan on turn if a heart falls? [/ QUOTE ] Well we are still protecting our hand but we are giving up some protection for value. I hate it when a third suited card hits and I have a set too but what are ya gonna do? You have to try balance it out. It seems to me that you are giving up a lot of value for a bit of protection. Let's say you flop quads but there is a possible straight flush draw on board. Pushing is going to protect your hand very nicely indeed but it's a bad play. Personally I think protect your hand talk is not very helpful. I'm sure you know this already but I hear people talking all the time about protecting their hand and it's not a very useful concept esp. in no-limit imho. I hope you agree. Anyway, on to your replies. 1) Usually a club on the turn won't change how I play this. If course I'd be happier if a club didn't come. I don't think we can automatically put Villian on a club draw here. He could easily be raising with a worse 3, a 4 or even air (since he has to think that board missed you completely). I think it's more likely he has one of these hands than a club draw, likely enough for the flat-call / turn push to be a good play. 3) If heart comes on turn we can't just assume villian has it esp. in a HU pot. All he has done in his mind is call a preflop raise and call a standard continuation bet. He could have a pair of 5s or something and think they're good. If heart comes I will usually bet about half the pot and see what he does. If he raises a reasonable amount I will call because if the board pairs on river you've got his stack (calling dependent on how much you both have left)(if river doesn't pair board standard play is to fold to a reasonable bet depending on read). If he raises a very large amount I'd usually throw it away as rarely will a villian check-raise bluff on the turn at these stakes. If he just calls and checks the river I might value-bet it anyway because you have a pretty safe fold if he raises any reasonable sum as it is even less likely he is check-raise river bluffing. 4) After leading out, if he just calls PSB the turn. This board is very drawy and you could be dead already. If he raises and you call, as I suggested, and turn is a heart I will usually check and call depending again on stack sizes. I want to see the river for my board-pairing outs. If the board pairs on the end at these stakes it is very unlikely that the villian will check a flush. So check-raise him for a lot unless you have some specific read because it is even less likely he will fold a flush. If you call and board doesn't pair check it and fold to a large bet. I will pay off sometimes against players who I know are capable of betting the turn and river on a bluff but these are VERY rare at these stakes in my experience. You might want to bet into him small on the river as a blocking bet if you think this will work but this can backfire and I'm not really a big blocking-bet fan.
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#8
04-02-2007, 05:40 AM
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Re: NL 25, when to slowplay your sets?
All of these are standard...
A3 : I 3-bet most of the time because a lot of villains stack off with 66+ and some NFD+overcard hands on this flop KK : I sometimes call flop and bet/raise turn. Most of the time I raise flop though, cause I raise a lot of donk-bets anyway. QQ : c-bet on a dry board, villain folds. standard. JJ : standard C/R
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#9
04-02-2007, 05:47 AM
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Re: NL 25, when to slowplay your sets?
[ QUOTE ]
JJ: Standard C/R [/ QUOTE ] Are you nuts? It gives you much more value when you lead the flop. If he has an overpair it is much more likely you stack him if you lead rather than you c/r him out of the pot.
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#10
04-02-2007, 08:23 AM
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Re: NL 25, when to slowplay your sets?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] JJ: Standard C/R [/ QUOTE ] Are you nuts? It gives you much more value when you lead the flop. If he has an overpair it is much more likely you stack him if you lead rather than you c/r him out of the pot. [/ QUOTE ] Who folds QQ+ in a reraised pot on that board ? Look at pre-flop, villain re-raised. It's 25NL so it's pretty much always JJ+/AK. QQ-AA isn't folding, and AK isn't calling when you lead (well except AhKh) So you c/r to get a bet out of AK and stack QQ+ anyway.
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