ICM: Some general rules?

[DonLigretto]

Hi

I'm giving 4tabling 6$ turbos a shot once again, since now I have quite a healthy BR of about 650 bucks. So far I still suck in my opinion. So far I played about 20, finished about 10 times 2nd, the rest 4th I guess 8 times and twice 7th or 8th.

I'm analyzing all my games with SNGWizard however still don't quite understand what I'm doing wrong. So far as I see I play pretty good until we're down to 4 handed. Could you outline some general rules for these situations since I really really just don't understand whats the correct strategy on the bubble, when you're just 3 players and in Headsup. I guess in Headsup you're pushing really any two cards no matter if Bigstack or Smallstack...when you're 3handed no clue, but at that point I'm just happy to survive the Bubble anyway. But what do you do on the Bubble? I probably tighten up too much I don't know but what do you do as a) small stack b) middle stack and c) big stack when you have i.e. 5000 chips and blinds are at 150/300 and everybody else has about 3000 chips? According to the 10BB rule ICM isn't important here as Bigstack or is it?

I just don't know how I should play in these situations and I would be really really grateful for any hints.

[Collin Moshman]

Hi DonLigretto,

The 10 BB rule and ICM work together just fine. Let's give a rough definition of each.

10 BB Rule: A rough guideline that says when raising, if you have 10 or fewer big blinds in chips, you should probably shove all-in. Note that this guideline still applies when you have over 10 BB but your victims all have 10 or fewer BB. For example, if you have t5000 and you have 3 opponents who all have t3000 or less, you would traditionally push any hand worth playing, rather than making a smaller raise that pot-commits you.

ICM: In this context, think of ICM as a way of telling you whether making an all-in, or also calling all-ins, will win you money (rather than chips) in the long run.

So when you are on the bubble in the situation you give above, you should blind-steal all-in frequently with your big stack. As to which hands are profitable to push versus fold, ICM-based software like Wizard can tell you your expected gain/loss in dollars. However you must first assign calling ranges to your opponents, e.g., Tight player will call with only QQ+ or AK, Loose players calls with any ace, any suited king, any two face cards, or any pocket pair.

When assigning these ranges, note that players tend (correctly) to tighten hands they'll call with on the bubble. For instance, the three players with 3000 will usually all be calling pretty tight, relative to their usual standards, when you're pushing on them at the bubble. This is because you are forcing them to put their entire tournament equity on the line, and most players (again, correctly) are reluctant to do so. So when using Wizard, narrow their calling ranges in a bubble situation.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Collin

[Powers_That_Be]

How about some general ideas on how to start finding these answers in SNGWizard. Set up a game with 4 players. Give everyone equal stacks and set the blinds so everyone has 12BB. Put yourself UTG with any two cards and evaluate. What does the wizard say you should be shoving with? Now move yourself to the BTN, how does it change. Now the SB. What can you call with here? Keep moving through all positions and writing this data down. Now change it so you have only 10BB. How does this change your range from various positions. Now try it with 8BB. Repeat with 3 players & heads up.

This should get you on the right track. Once you have a basic idea, work with the quiz and when you get one wrong, go back and really try and figure out why it is wrong. Alright. Good luck.

[checkmate36]

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Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Collin


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Anyone know where/when I can get a book that will go into these ideas in more depth. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Josem]

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you outline some general rules for these situations since I really really just don't understand whats the correct strategy on the bubble, when you're just 3 players and in Headsup

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many circumstances require you to push much wider than you would expect, and many circumstances require you to call much tighter than you would expect.

[DonLigretto]

Thank you very much for your answers, especially Collin. So as I understand about the bubble, the calling ranges get much tighter, but the pushing ranges much wider.
I'll try this stuff now in SNGWizard.
Thank you

[countzerO]

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Anyone know where/when I can get a book that will go into these ideas in more depth. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Same here, any good sng books out there?

[AMT]

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[ QUOTE ]

Anyone know where/when I can get a book that will go into these ideas in more depth. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Same here, any good sng books out there?

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....coming soon by a Collin Moshman near you.

[ymu]

Why are you 4-tabling when you're not happy with your game?

If you're not making much money - and you're not by the sounds of it - you're free to spend time improving your game rather than trying to maximise turnover.

Play one table. Use all that spare time to observe your opponents play, get an idea of their ranges for limping, raising and calling a raise, what their bet sizes mean and of course to think about hands you were just involved in and how you could have played them better.

Playing well, you could make more single-tabling the £11s than 4 tabling the $6s, and your game might even improve along the way. When it does, add tables - but not until you know what you're doing, why you're doing it and you know all of this with just a couple of seconds thought because it's become second nature to play well.

[Collin Moshman]

Hi guys,

I missed the beginning of this post, and ymu is completely right.

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I'm giving 4tabling 6$ turbos a shot once again, since now I have quite a healthy BR of about 650 bucks. So far I still suck in my opinion. So far I played about 20

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Stick with one, or at most two tables, until you are confident in your playing ability. Observe, analyze, get better ... and then add tables. Also, it is real hard to judge how good you are after playing 20 games. The usual number quoted is 1000, but I would say anything under 100 almost cannot be significant.

Don't worry though, read the advice here, play with software, analyze at the tables, and you'll get better in no time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

And good catch about OP, ymu.

Best Regards,
Collin