Sam Harris lecture and political correctness.

[CaseS87]

a topic that i don't see discussed here very often is the social taboo that exists involving challenging other peoples religious beliefs. i think the reason people don't talk about it here very much is because this taboo essentially doesn't exist on the internet. however, in real life when i approach this topic with relative strangers and even with family members they either shut down if they are religious, or they refuse to ridicule or question other people's beliefs on the grounds that "its a personal thing."
here is the lecture, im interested in what you guys think about it.

[DougShrapnel]

This is pretty thought provoking stuff. Sam brings a more human element to the plights of those that advocate reason.

[arahant]

Well, i like the speech as a whole. About half-way through, though, it started to make me sad.

I am struck by the fact that neither he, nor anyone else i've heard, seem to be proposing a way forward - a way to "undermine the dogma of faith". He repeatedly says things like 'we need to have "conversational intolerance"', and "we have an extraordinary problem", but he is mostly preaching to the choir.

If I were a different person, maybe I'd start my own 'religion'. As a kid, my parents took me to a Presbyterian church...they didn't believe in the silliness, but it was a community thing - and i liked the donuts. Someone should try and start a 'church of sam harris': develop a consistent world-view based on rationality, with elements of liturgy and sacrament, uplifting messages, etc... Start the movement on the west coast, advertise to bring in 'parishoners'...I think there is probably a sizable number of families who would love to take their children to someplace that fosters both community AND reason.

The trick is to find messages that are sustaining enough to spread through society, and eventually overtake the entrenched position of the established religions.

It's all very good to stand up there and talk about how reasonable it is to challenge the superstitious non-sense that is christianity, but we all have to live in the world. If 44% of people believe Jesus is coming back in 50 years, it's a bad move to challenge anyone who says this. You won't get a promotion from your nutty boss, you won't get laid by that hot chick, and you may find spit in your hamburger...

The comments about Al Aqsa were interesting. I hope it gets bombed, just so I have something to watch on TV. We should do it now...seems like the news cycle is in a lull.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I am struck by the fact that neither he, nor anyone else i've heard, seem to be proposing a way forward - a way to "undermine the dogma of faith".

[/ QUOTE ]

what did they do in europe?

luckyme

[CaseS87]

[ QUOTE ]
I am struck by the fact that neither he, nor anyone else i've heard, seem to be proposing a way forward - a way to "undermine the dogma of faith".

[/ QUOTE ]

he absolutely is proposing a way to "undermine the dogma of faith." the whole point of the lecture as i took it is that if we treated religious faith like anything else on the planet, it would be ridiculed and questioned without end, making it a social taboo to in fact be a religious person.

at the moment in US society we have it backwards as it is absolutely socially unacceptable to question matters of faith.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am struck by the fact that neither he, nor anyone else i've heard, seem to be proposing a way forward - a way to "undermine the dogma of faith".

[/ QUOTE ]

he absolutely is proposing a way to "undermine the dogma of faith." the whole point of the lecture as i took it is that if we treated religious faith like anything else on the planet, it would be ridiculed and questioned without end, making it a social taboo to in fact be a religious person.

at the moment in US society we have it backwards as it is absolutely socially unacceptable to question matters of faith.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even he admits that this isn't a solution. When 90% of the population believes something, it doesn't do any good for the other 10% to just point out that it doesn't make sense. The people in public discourse are not going to start questioning their own beliefs just because a few atheists ask them nicely.

As to what happened in europe...search me!
I'm hoping they just came to their senses over a number of generations, and that eventually the US will, too.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
As to what happened in europe...search me!
I'm hoping they just came to their senses over a number of generations, and that eventually the US will, too.


[/ QUOTE ]

The social freedom to call low quality claims 'nonsense' or worse seems quite common in the europeans over 50 that I know. Europe has fairly recent experience with leaving wacko ideas go unchallenged so that may play a part in it.

Even europe is being put to the test with the influx of religious groups and the call for 'tolerance' and other social niceties. PC will probably give xtrian and muslim cults cover even in europe in the future if guys like Dawkins and Harris can't convince rational people to speak out.

luckyme

[JayTee]

I really wish Harris would drop the religion is worth than child molestors bit. It's just as stupid as what he's arguing against.