Hollywood park 15/30. AA gets defensive on the flop

[SNOWBALL]

Villain's read on me is that I am an absolute maniac. Everyone else at the table things I'm pretty tight, and often have the goods.

Villain in this hand is a typical weak loosepassive midlimit player. She plays too many hands, but not absolute trash. She prefers to check and call. I saw her do this with small trips OOP. She's stuck fairly bad, and has been playing a while.

Hollywood park 15/30 daytime game.
The game is playing pretty weaktightish, with almost everyone giving eachother a bunch of respect. In other words: I am robbing those nits blind on every street, and they suspect nothing because Mike l. told me to be a good liar.

I raise a tightish EP limper dude with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
A fishy regular (I'll call her blondie) who LOVES to coldcall me, cold calls me. The blinds call. Limper calls.

Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Blinds and limper check to me. I check (?)
Blondie bets. All fold. I call. Turn is an Ace. I checkraise.
River is a T
I lead

[ProfessorBen]

I probably don't even think about it before betting, but I think a flop check is a viable alternative here. I still bet to charge 8x and 77-/99/TT though.

I like the turn and river as played. Trying to c/r the river doesn't seem like a very good play as villain seems like the type to check behind a small K, especially if she knows that her kicker isn't playing(likely isn't). Also, in the case that she has KT/K8, you can't 3bet without betting.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]

I probably don't even think about it before betting, but I think a flop check is a viable alternative here. I still bet to charge 8x and 77-/99/TT though.


[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the problem is that besides the fishy lady, everyone else is giving me so much damn respect that I'm not gonna get played with by many hands that are worse than mine. I'd rather give a worse hand a chance to catch than bet the flop, and have everyone correctly fold when they are basically drawing dead.

Actually, the game was so damned tight-passive, an argument could probably be made for be betting the flop, because even if some of my opponents catch a pair on the turn, they might still get out of my way. Also, betting the flop allows me to define my hand, and fold if checkraised. For example, if the fishy lady calls my flop bet, and one of the blinds CR, I'm GTFO.

[cowboy billy]

even though the flop is as dry as can be, by checking you're giving your opponents infinite odds to catch something on the turn to make runner runner, which of course would suck monkey balls

therefore, I'd just bet and see what goes down

remember that we'd love to just take the pot down right here on the flop

sure, it would suck if we got c/raised and couldn't put our 2 outs to use, but by NOT betting we won't have defined our hand and wouldn't know what to do on the turn

it's a weak tight table, you're not getting bluff check raised on the flop, straightforward play is key here

just bet and get called by any 8 and any small pp which is exactly what these kind of players love to do

then, when the turn bricks off and they check again, you can check behind and when they check river again, value bet and get paid, if they all of a sudden bet into you, you know what time it is

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]

just bet and get called by any 8 and any small pp which is exactly what these kind of players love to do


[/ QUOTE ]

There's only one player in this pot that "loves" to do stuff like that. There are 3 others that I could be losing value against.

[cowboy billy]

allright, what if you check and one of your opponents hits his card for an open ended, or a flush draw?

all of a sudden, you've just given up 20% of the pot, which means the 1 extra bet you collect from them on the turn is useless anyway

what if one of them has a small pp which they (as you say) would fold for 1 bet, but now catches on the turn? how much value would you be losing THEN by checking?

what if everybody checks, the turn bricks off with a deuce of hearts and somebody comes out betting, what do you do?

calling when behind would be a BIGG mistake, folding the best hand would be a HUGE mistake

just bet and collect

[ProfessorBen]

The reason I don't mind a check behind is because people are drawing to 2 outs or less against us and their hand ranges make up alot more trash than PP/8s, though it also has the benefits you named and it also gives us the free card we wanted against the K. Seriously, getting nitty about the flop is the least interesting thing to do in this hand.

Bet/3betting the turn is also an option, but it doesn't go well with your image, nor with the opponents involved. Bet/3betting is definitely a superior way to get 4 bets in on the streets compared to 2x c/r, I just don't know whether you get all 4 frequently enough for it to be superior to c/r, bet.

[ProfessorBen]

[ QUOTE ]
allright, what if you check and one of your opponents hits his card for an open ended, or a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

BDFD's are 1.5 outs, BDSDs even less, hardly something to be concerned about compared to our other concerns in this spot.

[SNOWBALL]

billy,
I want someone to have QJ and pair one of their hole cards on the turn, and pay me off. Also, I don't think a bet has a lot of value in terms of getting called by worse hands on this board.

I want an 8 to get suspicious of me and maybe call 1 or 2 bets on later streets. I'm not sure this is gonna happen. In a slightly looser game it would. This game is tight tight tight x3 not tight tight x2. Na'mean?

[mike l.]

it's correct to normally bet for value and information, but if youre going to pick a spot to check a great hand on the flop for deception, meta hand, and to let someone catch up this is as good a flop as any to do it. have fun torturing those people...