Fold weak flush on paired board?

[berserk]

Loose 2/4 6 max game on stars.

I limp after 2 limpers on button with 2359, suited to the 9.
Small blind raises, BB calls, and we're 5 way to the flop.

Flop comes 27T with 2 of my suit. SB leads, 3 calls ,1 fold. I make a loose peel on button since I have position, draw to second nut low, pair, etc and am closing action.

Turn is a T, making my flush. SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds...I?

[Split Suit]

prob fold, cuz what is he betting into 4 ppl that u currently beat? 1-6 on ur money right now tho, so how often are u goin to b holding the best low hand if u call? just about never cuz SB is calling. so simple, fold

[Buzz]

Berserk - Fold. You should have folded to the flop bet. No way to recify that now. But don't make matters worse by continuing any longer.

Buzz

[TxRedMan]

fold preflop.

[bbartlog]

Fold preflop. Fold flop. Having not done that, fold turn...

Of these I'd say the preflop call was the one I might be most likely to make, but this hand is looking for an ace on the flop, and when you get counterfeited for low instead it's easy to lay this down.

[1MoreFish4U]

I would usually fold this pf, but with no A on the flop I would fold to the BB bet.

A fold on the turn is the right way to go.

Of course this being Stars & 2-4 6 Max it is entirely possible that you end up seeing that the BB was betting his Nut Low draw to represent the T helping him, and the original raiser was betting AAxx and is calling with 2 pair - and you would have too kdown the whole thing.

Still, you have to play the %'s.

[berserk]

NH 1morefish. The original raiser did have aces and the other guy was actually helped by the T, betting naked trips.

[1MoreFish4U]

The replies often seen as to whether you should stay with a hand are based on the opponents always having what they are representing.

In fact, those of us who are winners at this maddening game win a lot of pots by recognizing opportunities to bet that tell the average player we have one thing, when in fact we don't.

If you are willing to risk some loose calls & you think about the previous sequence and the various possibilities presented to the new bettor, you can have a lot more flexibility.

Occasionally I would raise the Turn to probe a little further, then even possibly check & try a "Crying Call" on the river. I just don't recommend the play to others.

Further on the subject, I can't tell you how many hundreds of pots I have scooped with a naked 23 on an Axx board when a scare card hits the Turn.

[chaos]

2359, even suited to the 9, is trash. The 9 does not coordinate with your other three cards. Having only three working cards gives you half the number of two-card combinations that four working cards does.

I would not draw to a 9-high flush.
You do not have a draw to the second nut low. There is a 2 on board. The best lows are: A3, A4, 34, A5, and then your 35. So you have a 5th nut low draw without counterfeit protection. This is usually worthless.

I would fold at the first opportunity. You missed your chance to fold preflop and on the flop so fold on the turn.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]Too soon, in my humble opinion, Tex.

It's not a great starting hand by any means, but it is a marginal hand and I generally play marginal hands on the button.

When playing a marginal hand on the button I hate to have the pot get raised behind me on the first betting round by SB (as here). And I suppose that's always a possibility. But the alternative is to fold marginal hands, even on the button.

But sometimes when you have position and can clearly see what is going on, and maybe especially if in your heart you're a rock, you can get marginal starting hands to pay off nicely in loose games. Depends.

I don't think you can play the hand at all (except in the unraised big blind) if you need an ace on the flop to continue. You're just not going to see an ace on the flop all that much when you hold 2359s. (3784/17296 = 0.219)
And an ace plus one or two low cards is even more remote, (3100/17296 = 0.179)
And when you don't see an ace on the flop, there's a slightly greater possibility an opponent has one, perhaps along with a deuce or trey.

Flopping one or two or three small pairs is usually awful and flopped small sets can be traps. I would not continue with one or two or three small pairs, but I would continue with a set, full house, or quads. With 2359s and an aceless flop, you'll flop a set, full house, or quads less than 3% (2.87%).

Regarding the suited aspect, I certainly don't think Hero should draw for a flush with a suited nine! However, I very well might play a made flush with a suited nine, especially from on the button. And having a suited nine does increase the scoop potential of the hand, if the hand should happen to make a winning low.

Bottom line: 2359s is usually not playable as a starting hand. You only get about one flop in five after which you can continue to a bet - and then you'll usually be playing for half the pot.

What is written above makes a fairly convincing argument for folding the hand, pre-flop. Yet I think rocks should usually play it on the button.

When you're perceived as a rock, and when you enter a hand, your opponents will suspect you have ace-deuce or ace-trey, and they'll often check the flop to you, especially if it's an aceless flop with two or three low cards. Thus sometimes you'll get a chance to take a free card, and thus will have a free second opportunity to pick up the ace you probably need. Or sometimes maybe it will be right to bet if you sense a bet will take the pot.

And by playing marginal hands from on the button, you're more difficult to read, less predictable. You often can get some "advertising" value from playing marginal hands on the button.

But if you are going to play marginal hands on the button, you do have to be able to easily get away from them when you get counterfeited on a no-help flop (as here). And you need enough playing skill to not get trapped chasing with them when things don't work out, and enough playing skill (and perhaps enough non-expert opponents) to extract a tidy profit when things do work out.

I can see folding marginal hands pre-flop, but the game is a bit more fun for me if I play them, at least from on the button. (But I admit it would be a bummer getting raised by SB after limping from on the button. I'd maybe re-arrange my seat if that happened much).

2359-rainbow (without the suited nine) is no longer a marginal starting hand for me, not even from on the button.

Just some thoughts.

Buzz