Raising big suiteds in the BB...+EV?

[Chino987]

Hey, what do you guys think about raising suited broadways in the BB after 4+ limpers? How low do you go (e.g. is QTs a raise? JTs? KTs?) If you raise PF do you have to hit TP or better or a strong draw to bet the flop?

[Grease]

I raise ATs and up.

I might raise KQs, but I don't have equity against Axo, so that's less likely.

The more shorthanded the pot, the more likely I am to raise.

In large pots, I only bet if I hit something like a draw, but in shorter pots, I might C-bet with just overs or overs and a BD draw.

Hands without an A are tough because you probably don't have an equity edge since lots of players play any A.

But I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks.

[Harv72b]

With 4+ limpers, you can generally expect to have an equity advantage with any two suited broadway, which would technically make a preflop raise +EV. However, you also have to consider how well you play postflop...can you get away from a weak top pair hand when the action warrants it? Are you going to feel tied to the pot, to the point where you'll feel obligated to at least see a turn card no matter what flops?

Plain and simple--if you aren't comfortable playing a hand like QJs out of position in a large pot, it's not a crime to give up a few fractions of a BB by just checking your option and seeing what the flop brings.

It's pretty rare nowadays to see that many people limp to my BB (at least online), but in general I will raise AKs-ATs, KQs, QJs, and JTs every time. KJs about 75% of the time. Other suited broadways I will sometimes raise, sometimes check. There are a million factors in whether or not I c-bet the flop when I whiff, but again in general terms, if I flop a pair and/or draw that allows me to call 2 bets, I'll bet every time (unless I can expect an EP player to bet, then I might check/raise with a big draw). Considering the size of the pot and that most of my draws will be to the nuts or near-nuts, I include a gutshot + backdoor flush draw in that category.

[Bob T.]

I think that if you actually wanted to, you could right at least several chapters if not a book about this subject.

First, a while ago, I did this every time it was limped to me in the blinds, and in most live low limit games, I still raise these hands almost all of the time. I think that it has added a great deal to my results.

Then, I had a long flat period, and one of the realizations that I came to, was that the game had changed. I was playing alot on party at the time, and when they allowed you to start playing up to 10 tables at a time, the games became populated with a lot of Ubertight rakeback players.


Some of those players played many fewer hands than I would raise with, so anytime I was raising, I was doing things that benefitted those players more than it benefitted me. So I became a lot more selective about when I would make the any two suited broadway raise out of the blinds, and that is how I play now.

If there is only one limper, especially if the limper is weak, I raise and expect to win the pot most of the time on the flop.

With two or three limpers, I usually play the quality of the group of limpers, if they are loose, or weak tight, I will raise, if they seem like strong players, or are very tight, I limp or complete.

When the field gets big, then you can go back to raising most of the time with these hands, because the size of the field means that a lot of players have probably taken advantage of the situation to get into the pot for one bet with weaker hands.

In addition to taking the initiative, (which you aren't required to keep on the flop) you are also building a big pot, which to some extent will ameliorate your bad position. Additionally, you are not looking to flop top pair with most of these hands, especially in a multiway pot. If you do flop top pair, then you just have to play it, and figure out where you are. But instead, you are hoping to flop some kind of draw with these hands, and if you do,inflating the pot will give you an pverlay for the rest of the hand while you persue your draw.

A lot of times, you will also get good relative position for the rest of the hand, because after you flop a draw, and bet the flop, one of the early postion limpers will raise, because they want to protect the hand that they have made, and you will be able to check to that player on later streets, and possibly get a checkraise in on your made hand.

Aside from the immediate value that you make on this play, you also might get some additional value later on if you wake up with AA or KK in the blinds, you can raise, and some of your opponents won't actually put you on that hand until what might be too late in the hand, because they remembered your earlier raise with QJs.

One quick last caution, you raise preflop with smaller broadway cards, flop a flush draw, and get there on the river with the Ace of your suit. I find that it almost always pays to bet out here, because one of the hands that your opponents are going to put you on is an unimproved AK. Two good things can happen, they might have checked behind you if they can't beat a pair of aces, so you miss out on value by allowing it to get checked through, or, maybe your opponent is convinced that you do have AK, and raises with his two pair or set, and you get the threebet with your flush on the river.

[Cactus Jack]

Nice posts, guys. Well played.

[James.]

4 limpers? the lowest i go is 9Ts+, QTs+. for me it has a bit to do with "who" limped and their limping ranges. these hands thrive on multiway action and these guys eat up equity in these multiway spots. hell, 4 limpers and a sb completion has me raising most pps as well.