Question For Top Players

[theBruiser500]

Hey guys, hopping some of the top players (Ray Zee, Flynn, etc.) will weigh in here. If I didn't go on tilt and always played my A game, I'm guessing and this could be way off but my guess is my bankroll would be a lot higher, like 60-90% higher than what it is now. My winrate right now is good but in my game I still make tons of mistakes.

People sometimes try to throw numbers out there about how many BB/100 hands is a good winrate but winrate is a weird thing, it seems to me that if a person played their best all the time their winrate could be double what people think a good winrate is. When I used to make mistakes I'd say "that's okay, I'm just at 1/2 NL and I'm still learning, this mistake will make me money in the long run cause I will learn from it." Now though when I make mistake I get too annoyed with mysef I feel like I shoudl be done learning now and ready to start making serious money all the time without the mistakes.

Do you really good players like Ray Zee still go on tilt? How often do you make bad plays that you are upset with yourself after made it, is this a problem all palyers have no matter how good and will always have? I'd really like to hear how good players would evaluate themselves about tilt and how oftne they play A game or C game and any thoughts on the subject. Thanks.

[jay b.]

I found the fact Barry G. rated players for steam control interesting, I was naive enough to assume these guys didn't have much of an issue with tilt at that level.

[aggie]

I was going to reference the same link so i'll just give the link...Seems that eveybody has at least some problems with tilt / not playing their A-game.....Show me somebody who says they play their A-game at all times, and i'll show you sombody who is lying (although they might believe that temselves)

greenstein player analysis

[AZK]

Flynn says that when you get to a certain level, you aren't making "mistakes" it's really more just making sure you stay on your A game and don't start playing a C game. You are at a level where I'd like to think you don't make many fundamental mistakes. The fact that you are playing 25/50 and I can only imagine being successful says this. Your mistakes are no longer I backed my stack with AA postflop, rather yours come down to player betting patterns, reads etc to decide whether or not a specific player has it. If you misread a player and lose your stack, sure you can be upset but you learn from it. It's not a mistake per se, more like misinformation, how can you be upset for putting a player on one thing and him showing you another. You learn the read, you apply it and move on, having a better read the next time a situation develops. If missing a read or losing a huge pot upsets you, and you tilt off a ton of money, then this is lowering your game to a C level and not being in a good mental state. I would imagine you should leave the table when you feel this happening and come back when you are back in the zone. There is nothing wrong with this and it isn't a sign of playing above your roll or anything like that.

For example, the diablo hand where he lost to a rivered higher boat and left, some idiot told him he shouldn't play that level if he gets upset. [censored] that. We aim to play perfectly, to have perfect shania against a given opposition each time we sit down but we are also playing for money. whether you are playing .25/.5 or 25/50 there is nothing wrong with being upset if you lose (be it bad beat or bad play) Money is money - and whether we like to admit it or not, it is one of (if not the) primary reason we play this game. No one would care to study, read 2+2 or do anything else to improve ones game if this were played for peanuts, so I think it is completely natural to be upset about lost money.

I'm sort of going off, but in short I think everyone to a certain extent tilts (which obviously depends on your definition - I'd define it as anytime you play a hand in a less than optimal way that you would normally play it given image, opposition etc - pretty vague I realize), the key is recognizing when/why you are tilting and not letting it affect your game.

Personally, I tilt when I don't get playable hands for an extended period of time, it leads me to start generating my own action e.g. raising 83s UTG, this obviously has mixed results. Other players tilt over lost pots/bad beats/bad play - I try to look at those situations as ways to improve it if I had to repeat it in the next hand. The key is controlling it. I'm sure every player tilts, the difference is that Flynn, Diablo, Zee etc are much better at assessing it (that is realizing you are playing sub-optimally), controlling it and moving on.

There are a ton of other thoughts I have on this, but I've wasted enough of everyones time and my ride is here to go to greektown anyway. I'll post more later.

[-Skeme-]

Good post, AZK.

[Ghazban]

I can't directly answer your question as I'm certainly not a top poker player. However, perhaps I can contribute something by way of allegory.

I'm a freelance classical musician and, if I go to an audition for a big job, there will probably be at least 100 other players there. Of that 100, there are probably 30 that are good enough players to win the job. Playing their best, they will all be technically proficient, expressive, musical, emotional, and all the other things you want from a musician.

However, in music, as in poker, not everybody plays their best all the time. The guy who wins the job is going to be the one who plays great music even on his bad days.

I could be wrong, but I think there's a lot of that in poker, too. People who can play well even when they're a little on tilt, or a little unfocused or a little tired (etc. etc.) are going to have great long term success while those who can only play profitably under ideal conditions will have significantly less.

[KaneKungFu123]

Great Post!

You have to differentiate between the best player and the guy who wins the most money. There are probally players making more money than you in the game, but if you fixed those errors, you'd be way ahead of them.

[J.A.Sucker]

When playing high, there are several aspects of mental preservation that separate the small winners from the big winners. This manifests itself in several ways:

1. Losing on a "bad beat" is usually for a lot of money. In a limit game, the best players realize that it doesn't really matter and don't dwell on it, because you'll get it back on the next hand (or the next day). So much of your profit comes from isolating one or two weak players, that it really is just a matter of time that you get the money. This is one reason why I enjoy playing short so much. The same principles apply in NL, but the money is much greater, so it is often more difficult to disconnect, and it is possible that you won't get the money back very soon. Maybe the live one will clam up and eventually quit.

2. If you have been losing a good chunk, it's usually best to just quit for the day. Forget about it and go home. Zee made this point to me awhile ago, and he had several reasons that he can state if he wants. However, the long and the short of it is that it's the best advice that I've ever gotten.

3. The best players don't underestimate the bad players. 99% of the time, these live ones are somewhat tricky and can pull some stuff. That's not to say that you have to fear them (you shouldn't), but you should definately respect the fact that they ARE thinking about the game, their image, and their opponents. Granted, their thoughts are usually wrong, but you need to think about what they think about.

4. Sometimes you just need to show a bit of gamble in certain situations. You may be taking slightly the worst of it, but in the long-term, you aren't. If you beat your tilt-prone opponent, he will often blow off a lot of money. However, you need to make sure that you don't fall for this when it's done to you. You also need to be really careful when choosing these situations.

5. Be willing and able to play big pots. If the money is significant, then people start sqeezing really hard and make mistakes. Relish the big pots and you'll win more of them. When you lose them, don't worry about it. You'll get it back on the next hand.

6. You'll make mistakes. Don't worry about them afterwards. They are done with - you can't change them at all. Just don't make them again in the future, since that's all you can control.

On this board, there are several players who probably play much better than myself, but I doubt that many of them are better at not tilting than myself. These are kind of the things that I think about when I play. Plus, having a "dumb grin" all the time helps matters if you play live.

[theBruiser500]

Hey Sucker, thanks for the post. Points 3 5 and 6 I like a lot. Point 3 my favorite, point 5 something to consider but to be used carefully and against the right players or it could be costly and 6 something I've heard before but is importnat to be reminded of. Point 4 I've heard before too, but have never used it, seems like a way to rationalize bad plays, can't think of a situation to use it in.

Sucker how often do you go on tilt, play subpar game, make dumb plays you're upset with yourself for?

[Ray Zee]

the good players pretend to go on tilt after losing a tough pot or two by pushing marginal hands. they dont go on real tilt for long or they hit the rail for good. ive seen many players that tilt that survived for a few years because the games were especially good or they accidently played well in that particular game. when it changed at all they were gone.
all players make mistakes and bad plays looking backward. that cant be helped. but making very bad plays or ones you know are bad in advance is another ticket for the rail.

THE j.a. suckers post is one of the best ever. read it twice.