NL10->NL25->NL50 Transitions and Experiences

HANABI · #1 04-20-2007, 06:36 AM

English is not my first language so bear with the grammar.

A little background on me, I’m a new player that watched some cardrunners/read books/got PT/PA hud etc. Main reason why I picked up poker was for a challenge. It’s a game that’s hard to master and great emotional control is required to be successful, and that appeals to me for some reason.

I know my sample size isn’t much, but that’s all I have for now so these are my first impressions I have played 21,000 hands since my initial deposit of $50 into full tilt 3 weeks ago. I started 2 and then 4 tabling the nl10 games. I have 10k hands at that limit totaling +260 at 13.2 bb/100. When my roll hit $300, I moved up to nl25 and the game has changed so much. Except for occasional maniacs, it was all regulars at my 6 max tables playing their 18/13 or 15/10 tight game. It was much harder to get paid off. At nl10 most of the players have over 50% vpip so you just make a hand, bet it, and get paid. Sometimes at nl25 it felt like if I just played straightforward solid poker and didn’t attempt any bluffs I could breakeven forever. I guess I was used to playing big pots all the time at nl10 and expected the same action at nl25. Big pots are for big hands. Big hands don’t come around very often, and tight players don’t go broke with garbage. So I played 10k hands at nl25 which felt like a real grind and was up $270 running at 5.21bb/100. Comparing my stats from nl10 and nl25 play, they are almost the same, 21/16/3 at nl10 and 20/15/3 at nl25. I tightened up a little bit while making the transition, probably because it felt like playing for more money so I didn’t want to risk it as much. Then I took a shot at nl50 and quickly dropped a few buyins.

I butchered this QQ hand pretty bad, this was my first orbit of nl50 ever. K on the turn was a really bad card for me and I kinda froze and didn’t bet enough on the turn. I think I shouldve either bet more on the turn or checked. Once the the Q hit on the river I figured I can’t get away from this hand and if he has a flush it’s a cooler, so I shoved hoping he calls me with 1 or 2 pair.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.25/$0.50 Blinds
5 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter

SB: $131.35
HANABI (BB): $56.85
UTG: $26.60
CO: $68.30
BTN: $44.40

Preflop: HANABI is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG folds, CO raises to $1.75, 2 folds, HANABI calls $1.25

Flop: ($3.75) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
HANABI checks, CO bets $3, HANABI raises to $10.50, CO calls $7.50

Turn: ($24.75) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
HANABI bets $13.50, CO calls $13.50

River: ($51.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
HANABI bets all-in for $31.10, CO calls $31.10

Pot Size: $113.95 ($3 Rake)

CO had A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a flush, Ace high)
HANABI had Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Queens)

Then 2 min later, on another table I lost another big pot:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.25/$0.50 Blinds
5 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter

SB: $122.20
BB: $49.50
UTG: $56.10
HANABI (CO): $71.65
BTN: $80.70

Preflop: HANABI is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
BB folds, UTG raises to $1.75, HANABI calls $1.75, BTN calls $1.75, SB calls $1.25

Flop: ($7) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, UTG checks, HANABI bets $5.50, 2 folds, UTG raises to $25, HANABI raises all-in to $69.90, UTG calls all-in for $29.35
Uncalled bet of $0 returned to HANABI

Turn: ($115.70) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

River: ($115.70) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

Pot Size: $115.70 ($3 Rake)

UTG had J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a straight, Queen high)
HANABI had T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Tens)

and then 3 min later another one:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.25/$0.50 Blinds
6 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter

SB: $56.85
BB: $18.20
UTG: $20
HANABI (MP): $80.20
CO: $68.25
BTN: $58.20

UTG posts $0.50
Preflop: HANABI is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG checks, HANABI raises to $2.25, CO folds, BTN calls $2.25, 3 folds

Flop: ($5.75) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
HANABI bets $4.50, BTN calls $4.50

Turn: ($14.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
HANABI checks, BTN bets $11, HANABI raises all-in to $73.45, BTN calls all-in for $40.45
Uncalled bet of $22 returned to HANABI

River: ($117.65) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

Pot Size: $117.65 ($3 Rake)

BTN had A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a flush, Ace high)
HANABI had K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings)

That’s when I realized I had just lost a third of my roll and I should move back down, so I did. Not sure what to do right now as my roll is at 450ish. I might just go back to nl10 and try to beat it for 20+bb/100 (which I think is doable for me now since I improved a bit) and then skip nl25 altogether and play nl50 once I get up to 1k or so. I am hoping to start some discussion with this thread about how you guys adjusted to various microstakes limits as you moved up, which ones you liked to play most, which were most profitable, which would you be playing in my position with the roll I have. I have a huge beef with nl25 because it feels like its infested with nits that are hard to exploit for me.

chanchuan · #2 04-20-2007, 06:49 AM

I had similar experiences with 25NL compared to 10NL @ fulltilt when I moved up with a $380 roll, and I moved down back to 10NL quickly after loosing 8 buy-ins.

But comeon, 25NL can't be that hard, we're sure missing on some skill here simply. I've heard ppl bragging about 18bb/100 winrate @ NL50 at fulltilt over a decent sample size so we can't _not_ be able to beat NL25 for a lot more than 5bb/100.

BTW, in hand one with QQ your turn bet is weakish I believe, it simply says: I'm so scared of the king, and you let him draw quite profitably with implied odds.

Hand 2 is simply a classical bad beat, isn't it?
Hand 3 is also bad beatish, you were the favourite on the turn allin.

Abelardo · #3 04-20-2007, 06:56 AM

Just look at the hands, those guys are losing money in the long run, they're perhaps a bit more sophisticated that the guys at 25NL and perhaps the only questionable play is the semi-weak bet you made with the queens, even then notice he didn't had the odds to call and caught the perfect card to stack you. Go back to 25NL and don't be scared when you come back to 50NL, you'll get them in the long run.

HANABI · #4 04-20-2007, 06:56 AM

Yeah, I agree about hand 1.
Hand 2 is just a beat.
Hand 3 is pretty standard i think. I datamined nl50 a bit before i went there and this guy was extremely aggressive so i opted for a c/r allin on the turn instead of betting.

marvin_1935 · #5 04-20-2007, 07:00 AM

QQ - this hand is easier to play if you 3bet out of the blinds. do you only 3bet AA/KK here? not really sure why you think the K is a bad card for you unless you put him only on AhKh. if you make it 20 on the turn the river plays itself.

TT - standard

KK - looks like you've got fps w/ unknowns. just pot the flop and turn.

Edit: you're rolled for 25NL so there's no reason to play 10NL and slow the learning curve

HANABI · #6 04-20-2007, 07:19 AM

I 3bet QQ most of the time, probably 70% and call 30%. My range for 3betting opens up as opponents get looser. Clearly i was uncomfortable here and opted for a passive line preflop. Hm.. in hand 3 if hes betting turn with any 2 cards why not let him do that? I think if the board was dry i'd just call the turn and let him bet the river one more time.

JadeRedstone · #7 04-20-2007, 08:02 AM

I have no problem beating $25NL in fulltilt.. Just started recording my stats (no PT on Mac yet) last 3650 hands I made $170, which translate to 18BB/100

when I first moved to $25Nl with almost $500 I quickly lost 10 buyins experimenting with 3betting light. I tried to move back down to $10NL , but really couldn't take it , so I promised my self that if my BR will go bellow $100 I'll drop down. (it was $120 at its lowest) Its now back to $400.
Been doing really ok in cash games only this last couple of weeks. built my initial BR with S&G. Am planning to stab $50Nl when I'm up to $750ish.

Small sample size, I agree. But had some bad bad sessions with few coolers as well as hot ones. so its not like I'm running especially hot or something.

When you are not BR'd to a level, coolers are a pain in the ars. That's why I want to wait longer until I stab $50NL

thac · #8 04-20-2007, 08:53 AM

There will probably be a lot of answers posted by the time I post this, as I plan on this being pretty long.

I've never really played nl10, at least not in the "grinding" aspect of it. I've played it when I was messing around with some friends. I started my bankroll on MTTs and SNGs, and when I moved to 6-max for the first time, I think I jumped right into nl100. I was spewing like crazy and whatever because I was a tourney donk, so I moved down to nl25 to get some of the basics.

When I got to nl25, I found a lot of the tight players you are seeing, but the thing is, they're BAD TAGS. They see monsters under the bed, they're afraid of getting to showdown with one pair, and they are just way too nitty postflop. You can use these characteristics to continually beat on them postflop, because you know they won't continue without 2 pair or better (usually, look for the people with a low WtSD rate [like 10-15%]).

Also, you need to game select. It's Full Tilt, there are ~40k people online a lot of times, you don't have to sit with the same regulars over and over. Find a table where you do not know any of the names and sit there. Don't look for like Sharkerfish and Fidodell and 2 other regulars and sit down at that table, it's just added stress that you don't need. There is so much dead money at nl25, you don't need to find the regulars and beat on them to make a profit.

Also, if you do happen to sit with a regular, find his tendencies. Is he playing too many tables? Is he going to showdown too often? Is he not going to showdown enough? Adjust your game based on what you see and go from there. Eventually, you're gonna get all the regulars to get up when you sit down, that's your goal against them -- it's not to play as many pots with them as possible.

At nl50, the players start to realize that they can play a lot of hands and be "profitable" with them, so they'll start raising a lot of buttons and COs with like Q4s and call a 3-bet because they can flop a flush. This is another period of the bad regulars, but now it starts to turn into the bad semi-LAGs/positional-TAGs. They'll always think you're making a move on them and will call down really lightly because they're "LAG" and everyone plays back at them every hand. This is when you stop bluffing (C-betting is not bluffing) and you just value bet them to death with top pair or better.

3-betting them with a lot of hands becomes valuable because they get so pissed and even when they call, they're no good in 3-bet pots, so if you improve your hand-reading and your play in 3-bet pots, you will make a decent amount of money from the regulars.

The donks at nl50 are the same as nl25, they're always gonna be dead money, no matter how you look at it. But, they're gonna take money that they earn from the worse donks at nl25 and always move up to nl50 with it. That's when you take that money back.

It's a continuous chain: Bad donks at nl10 give money to the bad donks that move up to nl25, which either give money to the regulars or donks at nl25, and either way, those players are gonna move up and donate to the regulars at nl50.

You have to decide where you are on that chain - are you the nl25 regular that moves up and donates at nl50? Or are you gonna be the nl50 regular that collects all the nl25 donks' money? It's all up to you and how much you study and put in the hours.

Good luck, stay away from my tables when you get to nl100. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Lego05 · #9 04-20-2007, 11:31 AM

I haven't read any of the responses yet but here are my thoughts. I currently play 50 NL - 8 tabling generally. I only have 50,000 hands logged for about 3PTBB per 100 hands:

(Also stats or reads would be helpful)

Hand 1:
Pre-flop: C'mon man def. reraise pre-flop. I'm reraising most people with hands a lot worse than QQ.

Now its awkward because of how pre-flop was played

Flop: I guess this is fine given pre-flop play. I don't really like that he called the check-raise though. What's he doing that with? Prolly either a set, a draw, AA,KK (reads would be helpful but maybe JJ or a T if he would think that those hands are good here. Is he the typte to just not fold AK even though he missed and you raised?)

Turn: Either bet more or check. I think I like bet fold here. A draw has to be a big part of his range.

River: Again as I said I think a draw has to be a big part of his range and he just hit it but I don;'t think I could fold this either.

Hand 2:
Is perfectly fine. Well played.

Hand 3:
Pre-flop: Ok

Flop: Ok

Turn: I don't think I like the check. Again a draw has to be a good part of his range plus don't give the hcance of a scarecard dropping if he has QQ or JJ. Again i think I like bet fold here on the turn. As played with your check I think I like this push after his bet but I'm really not sure. Would he bet with his draw there and not take the free card to try to hit? He may still have some other hand you beat, but a set has to be a good possibility as well.

C4LL4W4Y · #10 04-20-2007, 11:34 AM

thac, good post - totally accurate