Two 8/16 Razz Trouble Hands

[calidist]

Just a line-check from two hands that left me frustrated. Any advice/thinking is much appreciated.

Hand 1 -
Razz ($8/$16), Ante $1.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.31 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds

4th Street - (3.56 SB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.78 BB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (4.78 BB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (6.78 BB)

Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets___raises

Total pot: (12.78 BB - $204.50)


Hand 2 -
Razz ($8/$16), Ante $1.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.31 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 7: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.56 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.78 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

6th Street - (4.78 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River - (6.78 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (8.78 BB - $140.50)

[Praxising]

I'm just a micro newbie Razz player, but I have a question. The sop, (from SoP) is you don't call a brick on 4th in an unraised pot. I thought completing wasn't considered a raise for this purpose. So, I wonder, especially on Hand 1, if you had an opportunity to escape and didn't take it, or if higher stakes is just different? As far as Hand 2, I think all stakes are the same - sometimes you just barely lose, or just barely win. Nuthin' to do about it. (Though Sklansky recommends folding the T also.)

[Sp00n]

1. Fold 4th, don't raise your bad 7 on the river.

2. bet 5th, otherwise standard.

[calidist]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Fold 4th, don't raise your bad 7 on the river.

2. bet 5th, otherwise standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really don't think the raise on the river is profitable? With my board I would assume villain would almost always bet the river with a axx58. Calling his reraise is questionable and likely bad, but given the deception on my board versus villain's board, I think I am ahead on the river a good deal of the time, or at least often enough to make the raise +EV.

[Andy B]

One hand per thread, please, unless you have a good reason to have more than one in a thread.

Usual caveats about razz not being my game and my having had several dozen beers tonight....

First hand, I can't think of a reason to call on fourth. I also can't think of a reason to raise the river. When he three-bets the river, is there any chance at all that 76543 is good? Any?

Second hand--fold fourth. Bet fifth. If you check by accident, check-raise fifth.

Get Sklansky on Poker.

[MarkGritter]

The pot is small on 4th in both cases and your starter is not exceptionally strong, just fold when you brick.

Hand #1's river raise is marginal. Some players will value-bet their 8 here, others will typically not bet unless they can beat your draw... if your opponent is predictable then the raise could be profitable. The reraise would make me puke though; unless you know he'd go to war with only the 87 I'm not sure you have a call.

You also have to consider whether he is capable of bet/folding the river. If he doesn't even have an 87 then you may not get paid off.

Hand #2, what happened on 5th? Bet or check-raise.

River value bet is OK (any made 7 or 8 that calls 6th probably also calls the river) but thin. I think it likely he has a deuce.

[electrical]

Hand one, as said. Fold Fourth. Sklansky says this is the worst leak in Razz -- calling Fourth in a small pot when you catch bad. Your hand wasn't a real peach on Third, and I consider the Third Street play a steal (and a proper one). When your opponent shows interest on Third and also catches good on Fourth you ought to be done with this hand.

Hand two, read the advice above for hand one on Fourth. The pot is small, your hand blows, he caught good. Get out.