Frustrated trying to determine agression in play

hammerva · #1 07-25-2006, 09:30 PM

My limit play has really stunk lately. In the last 10 sessions at .50/1 & 1/2 limit, I have only 4 winning sessions. So I read this board and all the advice screams that you have to be aggressive aggressive aggressive with many many bets. Checks seems to be considered heresy on this board. So I am trying to be more aggressive and get rid of my passive play and now I am playing worse. I don't know when to put the brakes on things. Here are two hands in particular that I lost significantly playing too hard.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) hammerva is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
4 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, hammerva checks.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3SB, 3 players)
SB checks, hammerva bets, MP3 calls, SB folds.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2.5BB, 2 players)
hammerva checks, MP3 bets, hammerva raises, MP3 calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.5BB, 2 players)
hammerva checks, MP3 checks.

Results:
Final pot: 6.5BB

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) hammerva is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 raises, 3 folds, Button 3-bets, hammerva calls, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (10SB, 3 players)
hammerva checks, MP1 bets, Button calls, hammerva calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.5BB, 3 players)
hammerva bets, MP1 calls, Button calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9.5BB, 3 players)
hammerva checks, MP1 checks, Button checks.

Results:
Final pot: 9.5BB

In the first hand, I tried to push like my middle pair to win the flop right there. When the spade hit on the turn, I again tried to push trying to portray a flush on my draw. All this pushing did nothing because I hit nothing.

In the second hand, it is just a case of not knowing when to quit. The smart play would be to fold on the turn when you realize that he has an Ace. But you have to be aggressive and portray the image of hitting every single hand.

Probably the biggest problem is not figuring out my opponents. I mean I can figure out who is aggressive or who plays the tight cards. But all this stuff on here about WIP and numbers and formulas just confuse the damn issue for me. I mean seriously do you guy play every single hand looking at Pokertracker stats?

Sorry if this seems like a rambling tilt story. I just can't figure out how to be aggressive after the flop and not just thowing money away to keep some image. starting to wonder if being a SLAP isn't that necessary a bad thing.

johnnytt · #2 07-25-2006, 09:38 PM

Hand one

I guess you can take a shot at the pot with your middle pair but I am not even so sure about that. The turn is pretty ugly. I check/fold and if you feel you need to bet just bet/fold.

Hand two.

I dont understand your idea behind just betting the turn here out of nowhere.

Gib · #3 07-25-2006, 09:53 PM

Hand 1: If you are going to take a stab at this pot you should bet the turn.

Hand 2: PF either cap or fold depending on your reads. Otherwise fold flop.

kerowo · #4 07-25-2006, 09:55 PM

Don't mistake aggression for cards. Trying to bluff an unknown is dangerous and will generally lead to you looking like a manaic at the table.

hand 1 is pure fancy play syndrom. You can't keep changing what fake hand you are playing, the turn c/r isn't going to get rid of anything you beat. When the ace hits your 3rd pair isn't good enough to keep going unless you know villain will fold to pressure, you don't know that. C/f the turn.

hand 2, fold the flop. The combination of hands that get raised and 3-bet that do not contain an ace are extremely small. You were playing this hand only for set value, you missed the set on the flop and didn't have odds to see the turn. Without reads give your opponents credit, there isn't as much bluffing going on at the micros as you think.

ottsville · #5 07-25-2006, 11:04 PM

Aggression is often touted on this board, but the key is to be selective with your aggression - don't just be aggressive to be aggressive, have a reason why. Don't play the "Me like hand, me raise!" and don't just bet/raise blindly.

Pure bluffs at the micros are many times -EV, especially multi way, since players will often call your bluffs.

FWIW, 6 losing sessions out of 10 is nothing to worry about.

ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S · #6 07-26-2006, 05:22 AM

lol

b/f or c/f the turn hand 1.

hand 2 c/f flop

by the way the cc preflop in hand 2 is ok... as is a fold. i really hate a cap here as some others have suggested.

Christian_Peters · #7 07-26-2006, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I again tried to push trying to portray a flush on my draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn’t the final table of the WSOP. It is Micro-limit hold’em. If you read SSHE, you will understand that you should rarely bluff in these low stakes games. Why? Because it rarely works. They will call. That’s what they do. Don’t do it (or do it seldom or if you have a very good read on someone as a weak player and you can narrow their hand down). Multi-way, you should almost never bluff at the micros.
Instead of bluffing, take them down to value-town. If you are reasonably sure you have the best hand, value bet your opponents relentlessly. Why? Because they will call. That’s what they do.

[ QUOTE ]
But you have to be aggressive and portray the image of hitting every single hand.

[/ QUOTE ]This is completely false and sometimes severely –ev (like when villain probably has the hand you are trying to bluff or how about when you are on a weak draw?) What makes you think this is a true statement? – wait, don’t tell me, I don’t want to know. You were a maniac in these hands. Essentially what I see here is you giving money away to people with better hands 90% of the time and them just calling you down because they haven’t labeled you as a maniac yet. If they had, they would be re-raising you.

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if this seems like a rambling tilt story.

[/ QUOTE ]If you tilted after these hands, you have no one to blame but yourself.

I’m newbie, but personally I feel the PF call with TT was atrocious. You should read the pre-flop recommendations in SSHE.

Against a raise and a re-raise you should be playing 5 hands, maybe 6. Against a raise and a re-raise PF, you should be playing AA-QQ, AKs, AKo. and against very loose opponents AQs. In ideal conditions JJ. Probably nothing else. (certainly not TT OOP against unknowns).
What kind of hands did you think your opponents had that you could call this with? The probability that you are out against a big PP (AA-QQ) is very high.

You should save these two hands, read SSHE six or seven times, and then revisit the hands. You won’t understand what you were thinking.

BTW, I don’t own Poker-Tracker yet, but I still try to maximize my expectation with every decision I make and that is what you should be doing too if your goal is to win.

Sorry if I was a little critical, but I appreciate it when people criticize my play because it helps me avoid mistakes.

Absolution · #8 07-26-2006, 07:17 PM

You shouldn't be thinking about being more aggressive. That is a sure way to spew a lot of chips. "Poker is all about aggression", is just one of those lines that people like to repeat, but really it isn't. Poker is about making the best move, given the information present at the time. That's all you can do. Sometimes that's a check or a call and that's okay. Raise when you think you have the equity to do so, whether that be through having the best made hand, the best draw, fold equity or a marginal hand + some fold equity. Also, raise if it increases your equity such that you can gain more from the pot than the bet cost you (i.e. the pot is big and you can protect). Call or check when you don't have the equity to raise, but the pot is big enough that you have the odds to call. Also call or check when your equity is thin, but you will gain more on later streets. Fold when none of the above apply. See, poker is easy. Recognizing when the above applies is the difficult part and all you can do is review hands by going over your sessions, posting hands where you weren't sure or responding to other's posted hands to see if you are right. Don't be looking to make a specific play, look to make the right play on every hand.

As for your hands:

Hand 1: I think the turn is a call. If he's bluffing a spade or nothing, then you either can't do anything about it because he will call, or you would like to encourage him to try again on the river. If he's ahead he is just going to 3-bet you here and then you're in trouble and might have to fold. If you were in position your raise would be more appropriate.

Hand 2: Fold this preflop most of the time, unless you have specific reads that these players are overaggressive in late position or will severely overplay their hands postflop when you hit a set. You're out of position with a hand that is at best 50/50 here most of the time and it could get capped. Easy fold on the flop as now you aren't ahead of anything. The turn doesn't accomplish anything as now you're out of position again and probably just slowed down MP1 with his ace.

Qygoth · #9 07-26-2006, 08:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3SB, 3 players)
SB checks, hammerva bets, MP3 calls, SB folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if this is the flop that I would make a stab at with middle pair. Mainly because there are flush draws, straight draws and plenty of over cards that could beat you. I think a lot of people will call you on this flop with some type of draw. In addition, I think you have limited opportunity to improve, getting a 9 to make two pair will hurt you, if you have someone with QJ or 67. Backdoor straight or a set of 8's (but not any spades) seem like your only really good outs here. If the turn is a brick, that seems the better spot to take a stab. The pot odds will be worse for your opponents, and they will have less cards to improve.

If the players are tight and would give it up on the flop UI, than this may be the right call, but if you have calling stations (low aggression) players in the hand, it probably is not going to work.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2.5BB, 2 players)
hammerva checks, MP3 bets, hammerva raises, MP3 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising here just seems like spew to me at this point. You are most likely behind to possible dead at this point.

[ QUOTE ]

Pre-flop: (9 players) hammerva is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 raises, 3 folds, Button 3-bets, hammerva calls, BB folds, MP1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally don't call a 3 bet with TT, unless I know the players are really loose. Than I think a cap may be in order, but most times I think folding is best.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (10SB, 3 players)
hammerva checks, MP1 bets, Button calls, hammerva calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Odds are pretty high that one of the two of the players was betting a hand with an Ace or an over pair to yours. With no ten on the flop and the ace, I think I give it up right here.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.5BB, 3 players)
hammerva bets, MP1 calls, Button calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a donk bet, players bluff with it a lot, but don't often don't actually have a hand. Is there a hand that you would call a 3-bet with that contains a 4? If you have trouble thinking of one, that is probably the same thing they thought and called you.

Aggression Factor is a comparison between (raising+betting) versus calling. When you have a hand bet and raise when you don't have a good hand or pot size justified draw fold. You should be doing more betting than calling, but you have to do it intelligently.

Sigurd · #10 07-26-2006, 08:13 PM

I once read something like this: Instead of thinking about reasons to call/raise, you should be thinking about reasons to fold your hand.
I have the notion that you could benefit a lot from trying to think this way as a exercise.

Also, try writing and posting your replies to the hands that other people post, prior to reading the replies other people made. Then read the replies and return to what you wrote yourself and add a section with your reviewed opinion.