3nd one card FD + 2 OC

JJack · #1 11-12-2007, 01:31 PM

$0.50/$1.00

UTG+2 ($5.00) LP who likes donk strong draws
SB ($39.50) 23.6/9/1.63 - 55 hands
BB ($56.25) (Hero)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG+2 calls, 1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checks,

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( 3BB )
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 raises, 3 folds, SB raises, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls,

First time raise flop to kick out weak made hands ?

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( 7.5BB )
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 raises, SB calls, Hero calls,

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( 13.5BB )
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 raises All-In $1, SB calls, 1 folds,

Final Pot: 14.65BB

Xylocain · #2 11-12-2007, 01:35 PM

Its very hard to be unbiased by this hand with the entire action available but I really think you should fold the flop the first time ... definately fold the flop the second time ... fold the turn ... fold the turn the second time and fold the river.

You are in a really bad RIO situation.

Dankenstein · #3 11-12-2007, 02:13 PM

:G:
Fold the flop to the 3-bet...Maybe peel one off here but I don't like it.
Since you called fold the turn UI.
Since you called fold the river UI.

LateFlag · #4 11-12-2007, 02:27 PM

Fold the flop the first time. Then fold the second time. Fold to the first turn bet, and then fold to the raise. Open-fold the river.

There was very little reason to get involved in this hand. It was a 3.5 BB pot when it was your turn to act. Just fold and go on to the next hand.

TimovieMan · #5 11-12-2007, 03:15 PM

I would probably have called the flop the first time, and only 've folded it when it came back to me 3-bet...

What's the reasoning behind the "fold flop first time"? Fear of the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]???

calidris · #6 11-12-2007, 03:18 PM

Getting 7:1 on your money is not bad odds if you close the action on the flop. As it is you face 4 ppl to act behind you and that can be expensive.

Xylocain · #7 11-12-2007, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably have called the flop the first time, and only 've folded it when it came back to me 3-bet...

What's the reasoning behind the "fold flop first time"? Fear of the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]???

[/ QUOTE ]

You can hit your outs, and still be behind to a flush. Besides if someone has caught a pair he often has a K or Q kicker. In addition, if you spike a non [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] pair on the turn your opponents often has very strong redraws and you cant really give any action.

If I knew I could see the turn for 1 I would call but here I really think a fold is better because the pot is REALLY tiny. You could raise for a free card if you think people behind you are folding but with the small pot and chances are SB is just betting a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] draw that accidently beat you ... and I dont think he is folding a pair.

... or something like that.

elindauer · #8 11-12-2007, 03:27 PM

Flop: very tough situation. Your two-overcard-3rd-nut-flush draw is just tempting enough that you hate to fold, and yet with so many players behind you in an unraised pot, you hate to call.

Raising would be great if you actually succeed in isolating the bettor, but an overcall from a bettr flush draw has you crushed and putting in extra bets with very few outs.

Honestly, I don't know what to do. Probably that means it's close between folding, calling, and raising. They all seem similar to me. I'd guess that calling is better than folding, but can't pick between raising and calling.

After calling, you should fold when it's 2 cold back to you. It's way too likely that you are drawing almost dead here. Let's take a quick look at pokerstove to help understand this hand...

KdQc vs JsTs: you have a 52% edge. This is your ideal result with an isolation raise.

KdQc vs JsTs and Ac3h: oops. You drop to 15% equity. Ouch! And you know that the Ac will see the turn no matter what you do. Is it out there? No way to know.

KdQc vs JsTs and 7c5c: 20% equity.

And of course, there are the nightmare scenarios where you are drawing dead. Note that this can easily happen in combinations, like when you are against a small flush / set / 2-pair and the Ac or Kc draw.

When it comes back to you for 2 more cold, you can bet that you are in one of these bad spots. The best you can hope for is 20% equity, and you getting only 6:1 immediately with the prospect of more raising behind you. Given your very weak draws, you are likely in a spot where implied odds are going to work against you, not for you. That is, you are looking at reverse implied odds getting 6:1 not closing the action in a spot where you can easily be drawing dead. Fold.

On the turn, you get trapped for two more bets... I'm not sure if you can get away here or not. Having made the mistake of getting to the turn in the first place, you may have to call and hope your club outs are good. Both opponents have claimed made hands, so there is enough doubt that I think the overlay being offered by the pot makes your calls correct. It's not clear though, I'm open to some thoughts on the probability you are drawing dead here.

good luck.
Eric

neurotiq · #9 11-12-2007, 03:33 PM

I'd probably fold when two more bets come back to me on the flop. It just looks icky.

JJack · #10 11-12-2007, 05:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: very tough situation. Your two-overcard-3rd-nut-flush draw is just tempting enough that you hate to fold, and yet with so many players behind you in an unraised pot, you hate to call.

Raising would be great if you actually succeed in isolating the bettor, but an overcall from a bettr flush draw has you crushed and putting in extra bets with very few outs.

Honestly, I don't know what to do. Probably that means it's close between folding, calling, and raising. They all seem similar to me. I'd guess that calling is better than folding, but can't pick between raising and calling.

After calling, you should fold when it's 2 cold back to you. It's way too likely that you are drawing almost dead here. Let's take a quick look at pokerstove to help understand this hand...

KdQc vs JsTs: you have a 52% edge. This is your ideal result with an isolation raise.

KdQc vs JsTs and Ac3h: oops. You drop to 15% equity. Ouch! And you know that the Ac will see the turn no matter what you do. Is it out there? No way to know.

KdQc vs JsTs and 7c5c: 20% equity.

And of course, there are the nightmare scenarios where you are drawing dead. Note that this can easily happen in combinations, like when you are against a small flush / set / 2-pair and the Ac or Kc draw.

When it comes back to you for 2 more cold, you can bet that you are in one of these bad spots. The best you can hope for is 20% equity, and you getting only 6:1 immediately with the prospect of more raising behind you. Given your very weak draws, you are likely in a spot where implied odds are going to work against you, not for you. That is, you are looking at reverse implied odds getting 6:1 not closing the action in a spot where you can easily be drawing dead. Fold.

On the turn, you get trapped for two more bets... I'm not sure if you can get away here or not. Having made the mistake of getting to the turn in the first place, you may have to call and hope your club outs are good. Both opponents have claimed made hands, so there is enough doubt that I think the overlay being offered by the pot makes your calls correct. It's not clear though, I'm open to some thoughts on the probability you are drawing dead here.

good luck.
Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Man thx for so detailed analysis, its great.
And when I call first time I thought that I have about 6 outs for 3rd FD and 2-3 for OCs so all 8-9.