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#1
06-26-2007, 12:01 PM
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Checking down when player is all-in
I joined what I thought was a "friendly" bar league just for practice and fun. There is no gambling, just trips to AC and cash prizes for the top players. Last night was my second time attending this game. A situation came up for which I would really like some input.
This was a NL tourney, about 14 players, $6000 starting chip count. I was at the final table with 7 players left. There was an inexperienced player, a girl about 20 years old who was all-in before the flop. BB was $4000 and she had about $7000 total. I was either 2nd or 3rd in chips with about $25000, middle position and called with [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J. One other player called, who happens to be the tournament organizer. Flop: [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 Tourney organizer checked and I bet $5000 on my straight draw. He folded. All-in girl flipped [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K, my draw did not hit and she tripled up. Tourney organizer got really nasty with me, saying when someone is all in you should just check it down, and I didn't even have a pair, it was a stupid play, etc. Next hand he folded and threw his cards angrily across the table. He busted out two hands later and walked out of the place, I guess to go have a tantrum. The guy is a Nazi and often complains when players don't play "correctly". My thoughts: Yes, betting $5000 on a straight draw was an overbet and maybe ill-advised. I am playing this free game to sharpen my skills. My thinking at the time was I wanted tourney director to fold because he is a good player and I didn't want him to win the main pot. I figured the next two cards would be free and I would be heads up for the main pot, and the fewer opponents the better. And even if all-in girl won, she was not a good player and would eventually bust out, possibly losing her chips to me. And that is exactly what happened several hands later. Had we checked down and the Nazi won the pot, his position is greatly improved and mine is weakened. This guy had earlier whined about my $7000 bet into a $4000 pot with pocket aces. Yes, another overbet, I misread the pot size. But at that table there were loose callers chasing every draw and I was protecting my hand. And it was a decent sized pot to win (in which he had also lost his $1000 BB call, BTW). I'm probably not going back to this place. I don't splash the pot, bet out of turn, talk during other peoples' hands, rabbit hunt, or curse when I lose, all of which I witnessed and this guy didn't say a word. Enough of my venting, I've read that in many games it is not allowed to agree to check down when a player is all-in -- is this considered borderline unethical / shady play? It seems like it might be, since two players with larger stacks are teaming up to knock someone out. Everyone should play for themselves. And in any event, this guy's attitude is completely unwarranted. Thoughts, criticisms greatly appreciated. 
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#2
06-26-2007, 12:09 PM
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Re: Checking down when player is all-in
All-in 7000
You 7000 Organizer 7000 Blinds 6000 27000 pot. After the 7000, you were left with 18000. Something doesn't add up. Also, prize/points structure?
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#3
06-26-2007, 12:13 PM
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Re: Checking down when player is all-in
I am interested in what people say because I disagree with many players on this topic. I will check it down if moving up one position will increas my winnings that much. But if it just brings me 1 player closer to the money I wont. I will use other peoples willingness to check it down to my advantage though. When I dont have a hand I want to bet but I would like more cards I will check hoping they think Im going to check it down. I think your goal is to get as many chips as you can any way you can. Once you are in the money then you can decide which is worth more to you (the chips or moving up one spot).
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#4
06-26-2007, 12:34 PM
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Re: Checking down when player is all-in
this frustates me so bad when people don't check down and the ALLIN wins the pot
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#5
06-26-2007, 12:35 PM
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Re: Checking down when player is all-in
[ QUOTE ]
All-in 7000 You 7000 Organizer 7000 Blinds 6000 27000 pot. After the 7000, you were left with 18000. Something doesn't add up. Also, prize/points structure? [/ QUOTE ] Not sure what doesn't add up. I bet 5000 after the flop and the guy folded. The prize was strictly points toward a trip to AC, which I don't care about because I am new and they are already well into the season. Like I said, I'm playing for the experience. Maybe if I keep playing and win some tournaments, I will be eligible to win something later in the year. Last night I finished 7th and 3rd in the two tournaments.
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#7
06-26-2007, 12:39 PM
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Re: Checking down when player is all-in
[ QUOTE ]
There was an inexperienced player, a girl about 20 years old who was all-in before the flop. BB was $4000 and she had about $7000 total. I was either 2nd or 3rd in chips with about $25000, middle position and called with [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J. One other player called, who happens to be the tournament organizer. Flop: [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 Tourney organizer checked and I bet $5000 on my straight draw. He folded. All-in girl flipped [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K, my draw did not hit and she tripled up. [/ QUOTE ] Your play was ok, though it was probably better to check. By the way, you probably should have folded preflop. Bluffing into a dry sidepot is bad, since even when it works, you don't win the pot. Here, you semi-bluffed. Your hand had 14 outs against the AK, so you were about even. However, if you had checked, all of your outs were probably still good. Knocking the jerk out of the hand would only help you on a few rare parlays, e.g., you hit a pair, but the river would give him 3 of a kind. It prevents you from getting paid off if you hit a straight while he hits a good hand. The reason I say your play was ok was that your bet was so small relative to the pot and you had so much equity if called that you didn't need to buy many outs to gain chips from that bet. Also, the considerations below have a little value, as does the fact that you will get to show down the bluff, which may let you get paid off later. [ QUOTE ] Tourney organizer got really nasty with me, saying when someone is all in you should just check it down, [/ QUOTE ] This is a common misconception. While it's rarely right to make a complete bluff into a dry sidepot, it is often right to bet into a dry sidepot. [ QUOTE ] My thinking at the time was I wanted tourney director to fold because he is a good player and I didn't want him to win the main pot. [/ QUOTE ] This is a good idea. However, when the blinds are that large, there might not be much skill left in the game. You can't afford to spend many chips to hurt a player, because you only get part of the benefit. Other players not involved in the hand share the benefit of transferring chips to a weak player. Similarly, do not make a bad call to try to bust a player so that everyone else moves up in the money. [ QUOTE ] This guy had earlier whined about my $7000 bet into a $4000 pot with pocket aces. [/ QUOTE ] First, you may not want to show. Second, he should thank you for warning him to get out of the pot, so he didn't lose more money when you had a strong hand. [ QUOTE ] I've read that in many games it is not allowed to agree to check down when a player is all-in -- is this considered borderline unethical / shady play? [/ QUOTE ] It is collusion. It should be unacceptable everywhere. Part of the equity from the all-in player comes from the possibility that the eventual 3rd best hand will force the eventual best hand to fold. Part of the equity of the players not in the hand comes from the possibility that the big stacks will get all-in, too, possibly eliminating two players in the hand. You may check it down. You don't have to bet your hand if you don't want to. You may not agree to check it down. [ QUOTE ] And in any event, this guy's attitude is completely unwarranted. [/ QUOTE ] Right. Just play elsewhere.
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#8
06-26-2007, 12:44 PM
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Re: Checking down when player is all-in
[ QUOTE ]
this frustates me so bad when people don't check down and the ALLIN wins the pot [/ QUOTE ] Why does it bother you so much? That's part of the proportional advantage of having a short stack. It is often right to protect your hand, or to bet for value, when a player is all-in. Your goal should be to accumulate chips (and to survive), not to try to knock people out as soon as possible regardless of the cost to you.
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#9
06-26-2007, 12:44 PM
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Re: Checking down when player is all-in
[ QUOTE ]
this frustates me so bad when people don't check down and the ALLIN wins the pot [/ QUOTE ] Which only makes me want to make this play more often in serious games, if it will put my opponents on tilt. I think it is ridiculous to think that way. If someone makes a huge bet and you have a hand, sack up and call. I made a huge semi-bluff bet and the guy folded, and he threw a tantrum because he lost the pot. Completely unprofessional, considering he is the guy organizing the game and trying to recruit new players. And as I predicted, it wasn't long before the girl lost her chips to me anyway.
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#10
06-26-2007, 12:44 PM
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Re: Checking down when player is all-in
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] this frustates me so bad when people don't check down and the ALLIN wins the pot [/ QUOTE ] Why does it bother you so much? That's part of the proportional advantage of having a short stack. It is often right to protect your hand, or to bet for value, when a player is all-in. Your goal should be to accumulate chips (and to survive), not to try to knock people out as soon as possible regardless of the cost to you. [/ QUOTE ] I doubt he even knew what he replied to. He is just a silly spammer [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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