stuck in the mud

ggeorge · #1 09-12-2007, 03:07 AM

first post.

been on for a few weeks reading posts. after being on for a short time i have learned a bit, but am struggling to make something happen. i have a good ability to read my opponents and pick up their tendencies in short order, but it doesn't seem to help. for example, the following hand.

fyi, i play mostly shorthanded because there are usually more of these games running on ub. i know there is a shorthanded forum but i figured i would post this here anyway.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
MP :#A500AF(mp2)/ calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB :#A500AF(sb)/ completes, BB :#A500AF(bb)/ checks.

Flop: (4 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
sb checks, bb checks, mp2 checks, Hero bets, sb calls, bb folds, mp2 calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
sb bets, mp2 calls, Hero folds.

River: (5.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
sb bets, mp2 calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

i was easily able to fold this hand because small blind is a calling station (43/2/.5 after 142 hands), who will call down any pocket pair or any pair he hits. the only time this guy led out and bet or raised was with a minimum of two pair or a monster pocket pair before the flop. so when he bet into me i could get out of the way. and yes, he had the flush.

also during this same session, i kept getting smacked around by a major moron with the following stats: 46/28/2.75 after 185 hands. no matter what i held this guy seemed to get the best of me.

here is an example of one hand against this idiot.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
MP :#A500AF(mp2)/ raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB :#A500AF(bb)/ caps, MP :#A500AF(mp2)/ calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, bb calls, mp2 raises, Hero calls, bb calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, bb checks, mp2 bets, Hero calls, bb folds.

River: (11 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, mp2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

the reason i just called down with this hand is everywhere i read it says the best way to handle a maniac is to just call him down unless you are sure you have the best hand. you never could tell with this guy. the calling station kept on calling him down and was tearing him apart because he was holding something. but this idiot didn't learn. at one point, the maniac was down under $10, but in 10 minutes he was back above $40. and of course, every time i employed this strategy, he held something better.

of course, he was holding 66. this guy was on an incredible roll of getting cards. if he would have played a solid game this guy would easily have crushed the game with his run of cards, but he always found a way to give it all back by trying to play into people, like the calling station. making raises without knowing when or why he should or shouldn't, etc.

as for my stats, i have kept track since i have adopted a new style, which came about by reading the forums. 19/9/3.75 over 2800 hands. i realize that on a shorthanded table, 19 is not a very good number, but in studying my histories, i don't find seem to find many missed opportunities where i should have dropped in some chips. and yes, in most instances, i go back over my hands and look for missed opportunities.

i am virtually even in money won. before this week started i was up over $50. when i first started in this style, my vp$ip was closer to 30 after about 500 hands. i realize that poker is a game for life, so short term swings can happen, so maybe i just needed to get it off my chest. but over the past two weeks, my vp$ip has obviously suffered along with my cards.

any comments or criticisms?

tyler_cracker · #2 09-12-2007, 03:30 AM

this is like the perfect first post. you have all the noob questions and insecurities all in one place.

- learn to detach yourself from the results. focus on whether you played the hand well, not whether you won or lost.

- calling people who beat you out of pots "idiot" and "moron" shows disdain for your opponent, which is unhealthy for your emotions and your bankroll.

- you are weak/tight. this is evident in the hands you posted, the way you write, and your stats.

- 3bet the flop with qq against the maniac.

here's the good news:

- you are paying good attention to your opponents. this is huge in shorthanded play.

- you are in the right place to get better and you have the right attitude about improving your game.

hth gl w2tb

Smurph64 · #3 09-12-2007, 03:42 AM

hand 1:

don't call short handed. Open with a raise. With mp1 in before you and only being in the cutoff I fold this hand preflop quite often.

Being suited I might take a shot and raise for isolation or very worst being able to act last, depending on my knowledge of the tables ranges.

Sushiglutton · #4 09-12-2007, 05:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the best way to handle a maniac is to just call him down unless you are sure you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad advice. Basically you bet or raise in poker when u think ur hand is better than the range of hands ur opp could be playing. By definition a maniac will put in more bets with a wider range. To exploit this misstake u need to put in more bets than usual with ur good-marginal hands, middle pair, sometimes even bottom pair becomes raising hands etc.

The calling down line is good if u have a marginal hand agaisnt an aggro opponent who is able to fold. A maniac does not fit this description, since they so often go all the way with trash. Therefore you shold try to get full value by raising.

Smurph64 · #5 09-12-2007, 02:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the best way to handle a maniac is to just call him down unless you are sure you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad advice. Basically you bet or raise in poker when u think ur hand is better than the range of hands ur opp could be playing. By definition a maniac will put in more bets with a wider range. To exploit this misstake u need to put in more bets than usual with ur good-marginal hands, middle pair, sometimes even bottom pair becomes raising hands etc.

The calling down line is good if u have a marginal hand agaisnt an aggro opponent who is able to fold. A maniac does not fit this description, since they so often go all the way with trash. Therefore you shold try to get full value by raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can attest to that, being considered a maniac by some opponents I can stat that if you call me down and never raise me except when you have a great hand, I am going to be very happy. Even when I lose I win.

If you play the proper standing cards and you don't bet/raise twice as much as you call then you are not making the right play many many times.

Bulletproof Monk · #6 09-12-2007, 02:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
calling people who beat you out of pots "idiot" and "moron" shows disdain for your opponent, which is unhealthy for your emotions and your bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

KitCloudkicker · #7 09-12-2007, 03:02 PM

I just had a hand against a maniac where I had AJo, and bet/raised/capped every street when I flopped TPTK to bust him (he had JTo). Easy 12BB + blinds profit

Dont call down against maniacs. Bet and raise them.

ggeorge · #8 09-12-2007, 05:08 PM

to tyler:

i do try and focus and the playing of the hand. i guess some of this was just a rant to relieve myself of frustration, and maybe that is where the moron and idiot comments came from. will work on that though.

i don't think i am weak/tight. i know i used to be that way. i think it is more of a state of my short term results and lack of cards. now, granted, you don't always need cards if you know the opponents and maybe can steal blinds, etc. but the reverse is also true -- in some positions this just isn't possible if you know the table. i think i am stealing my share of some blinds or just continuation betting and taking the small pots. maybe i can try more steals.

to everyone else:

i will work on my play against a maniac's game.

would anyone here try and steal blinds if you know opponents will call, on a high average, your steal attempt and your flop continuation?

thanks for the input.