Bottom two vs. a turn minraise

[Aceium]

I've been at this table for a while and villan hasn't done anything completely out of line. I usually take notes when people make really weird plays. Don't have any notes on him right now. He's running 34/14/0.9 over 200 hands.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($9.85)
UTG ($20.75)
MP ($11.35)
CO ($10)
Hero ($9.35)
SB ($18.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $0.35</font>, MP calls $0.35, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $0.35, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($1.20) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.1</font>, UTG calls $1.10, MP folds.

Turn: ($3.40) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3.1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $6.2</font>

First question: I call on the button here trying to get a good flop in position against two players. Is this the flop that I'm looking for?

Second question: When I see the check/call line and then check/minraise it starts to scream strength. Should my best play be to check behind here? What is my play on the river if I check behind?

[PJo336]

I fold based soley on his aggression. Over 200 hands his AF shows he is a pure calling station and only bets or raises with a great hand. Thats going on stats soley and 200 is a fair sample for af

[wingchunflush]

Hmmmmm this is tough I think we are ahead most of the time in this case, I am ok with getting it in against this guy.

[Dankie]

i haven't been studying poker for too long now but heres my two cents:

question 1: I like the call. This is the flop you're looking for more or less, as there are only a few flops better for J 9s, but not any of which would potentially induce action like this one did. I would put him on AK, KQ, 8s, 10s, Qs... maybe kings and he is "slow playing" them? I may be leaving out a few possibilities like 9 8s or 6 7s, but i doubt he would raise those UTG pf. So my point is that given his range and given your hand the turn is a shove. I just can't see him having you beat although except possibly 8 8.

question 2: I say shove the turn. Besides that i dunno

[Aceium]

[ QUOTE ]

question 1: I like the call. This is the flop you're looking for more or less, as there are only a few flops better for J 9s, but not any of which would potentially induce action like this one did. I would put him on AK, KQ, 8s, 10s, Qs... maybe kings and he is "slow playing" them? I may be leaving out a few possibilities like 9 8s or 6 7s, but i doubt he would raise those UTG pf. So my point is that given his range and given your hand the turn is a shove. I just can't see him having you beat although except possibly 8 8.


[/ QUOTE ]

With a PFR of 14 I don't think that suited connectors as low as 67 are in his UTG opening range. I'm trying to get a feel for what his range could be after seeing the c/c flop c/minraise turn action. As a general rule this is supposed to be pretty strong.

So if we're narrowing his range down to something like AK or a set, this should be a clear turn fold, as I am ahead of AK and way behind the rest, right?

[Dankie]

range wise i dont necessarily put him on a set. however if i had to put my money on his hand it would be 8 8, 10 10, QQ or K K, and if im right youre beat 50% of the time
(i realize this isnt helpful). dunno man its a tough call, im curious to know what happened though.
However, here is his range to me, some being more likely than others:
AK, KQ, KJ (doubtful), AA - 88

i hear you about the strength, but against inexperienced players that can also mean timidity. I guess it depends how much of a thinking player you think this guy is.

[You're No Daisy]

Calling here with position is not horrible considering villain's stats. But no...this is not the flop you are looking for. It's very draw heavy. A better flop would have been [J 9 4] (rainbow), [T 8 x], [T Q 5], [9 9 x], [7 8 T] (a miracle flop). I think you still need to bet the turn with 2 pair here. However the turn check raise indicates he either already flopped the nuts or made a very strong hand (like a set) which beats your two pair. I would fold and save your money for better spot.

Villain 34/14/0.9 so KJ, QT, JJ and 99 are all certainly within his range to play and raise. But the most important stat here is villain's AF which is 0.9!! He suddenly comes alive with a turn check raise...you're beat. Could be a straight or a set. Either way, you need to fold this.

AC

[Aceium]

He did have QT for the nuts. The reason I was confused by this hand was that I wouldn't normally put someone who open-raised the pot on a hand like this. I don't know if I should start getting away from these situations or if I should keep going. It sounds like a lot of the posters on this topic are as confused as I was. So right now I don't think there's a definitive answer to this hand (without knowing the results).

Generally, I think it's been confirmed that when someone who has a very low aggression factor suddenly comes in raising (esp. a checkraise) on a late street, that it's best to dump anything that isn't a monster or close to it. I'm not sure how much better I would feel with KJ here instead of J9. If I had KJ I would probably stack in with more confidence that he didn't have KK.

[TheChad]

noted and lesson learned. thanks for the post.

[WhiteWolf]

Given his AF, we can be pretty sure he has top pair beat. Given his pre-flop raise, the only hands that beat top pair but lose to our 2pair is an AA oddly slowplayed on the coordinated flop or an (unlikely) 98. I think we need to fold.