50NL: KK: Monster Checking for Monster Profit

gir · #1 02-01-2007, 04:41 AM

No reads on villain, I sat down a few rotations ago, have been picking up raising hands and been doing so at a fair rate. Hadn't 3-bet anything preflop before this hand though.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($62.40)
Hero ($64.50)
UTG ($35.05)
MP ($19.40)
Button ($10.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, Button calls $0.50, SB (poster) raises to $1.75, Hero raises to $6.5, Button folds, SB calls $5.

 No reason I wouldn't 3-bet preflop...It's standard with this hand.

Flop: ($14.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

 My hand is currently destroying the board. Does he have AKs? Not even possible. AQs is possible, but is he going to call that large a bet with that hand? Maybe. Is he going to have hearts this time? Only a 1/4 chance. He's sitting here with a hand that I'm quite uncertain of, just that I know he's dominated and not likely to be able to outdraw me. I don't want to scare him away. I check behind.

Turn: ($14.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $5, Hero raises to $20, SB calls $15.

Alright, villain has something...He's betting and calling my raise. Now, he's sitting with a 2/3 pot size bet behind. My raise on the turn was nearly pot size while being somewhat specific so he would have less than a PSB on the river making it harder for him to fold his hand.

River: ($54.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $30, Hero raises $36.50 (All-In), SB calls $4.40 (All-In).

Villain bets into me...Well...that makes life easy.

Final Pot: $123.30

Results in white below: 
SB has Qc Kd (two pair, kings and twos).
Hero has Kc Ks (full house, kings full of twos).

corsakh · #2 02-01-2007, 05:11 AM

Ok. Was there any real reason you checked the flop?

gir · #3 02-01-2007, 05:14 AM

Definitely. I didn't want to scare off QQ, JJ, TT, 99.

corsakh · #4 02-01-2007, 05:24 AM

Interesting. What hands do you think 3bet preflop and check this board in position?

LordTacohead · #5 02-01-2007, 05:34 AM

Obviously, this donk was perfectly happy to stack off with TPGK, so I doubt you gained anything from this taking this line given his actual hand. This generally isn't a very good move, because the old "check flop/raise turn" trick sort of telegraphs the strength of your holding. So it's unnecessary against bad players, and makes you more transparent to good players.

Numfar · #6 02-01-2007, 05:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely. I didn't want to scare off QQ, JJ, TT, 99.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your line does scare them off. QQ & JJ will often call the flop because they think it's a c-bet - TT & 99 will sometimes too. As played, they almost always fold to your turn raise because it screams monster. So, against those hand you would have made $10 if you'd just bet the flop - rather than $5 as it was played.

I don't really mind slowplaying but the problem is that it seldom gets you the most value unless someone hits a miracle on the turn. In this case you stacked him because he had a K - not because you checked the flop. If he didn't have a K then there is a good chance that you would have lost value.

Genz · #7 02-01-2007, 07:14 AM

Against players who are willing to give you all their money with any pair, you can play these hands as you wish. Otherwise I agree with what has been said: you often lose value and you are acting out of character and you are giving up an opportunity to get check/raised on the flop.
Because the board only contains one high card, the slowplay isn't terrible, though. But I can't really see why you expected him to call your turn raise. The 2 most likely didn't help him. Make it smaller.

matv · #8 02-01-2007, 07:17 AM

I think if you had a read that he's going to bet the turn a lot this could be +EV over betting

spatn · #9 02-01-2007, 07:56 AM

I, ofcourse, don't hava a read on villain.
But isn't possible that he taught his pair of K's was good because of the check on the flop.
KQ is a hand that is easily dominated (certainly if there is a 3-bet Preflop). And by checking the flop villain put hero on QQ or something like that?

matv · #10 02-01-2007, 08:28 AM

checking flop/raising turn is like posting up a big bill board saying:

"I HAVE THE NUTS"