I am such a rock

PokerJans · #1 06-13-2007, 01:29 AM

8-16 limited betting with pink chips

OK so whenever I am calling down in smallish pots playing live limit HE it just always seems wrong.

#1 New game. Button opens and I call with A7o in the BB. Almost three-bet but the button is a white woman. Women in general are passive. So I am fine with PF, but if I really should have 3-bet lemmyknow

I check raise A94 flop with flush draw and she three towns it. Turn is a 9 - fold to her bet right?

#2 I open ATo in UTG+1, button three-bets and the SB calls.

AAK flop with two spades. check, check, bet, SB folds, I raise and then get three-bet by the button.

Turn is the Qs

I was getting killed today and as a result I was getting a little gunshy towards the end of my session. Looking back here I should have been more aggressive PF and on the turn right? (EDIT - I am talking about #3 here)

#3 Opener is a tight asian kid who doesnt value bet rivers very well. He raises a limper in HJ and I call on the button with 99 (three-bet right?) and the BB also calls.

445 checks to tight Asian who bets, I raise, it folds back around to him and he three bets.

5 I check behind. I should definitly have bet right? I guess that is also really bad huh?

King on the river and I call his bet. Like 8-1 or something

It seems as thought a lot of people in this forum play low limit live games so this seems like a good place to ask the question. Against your standard weakish-tighter live player how often are calling bets on the river and winning? Just something to think about because out of my six sessions of HE so far this summer I think it has happened exactly one time.

#4 EP limper and I raise 88 in the HJ, SB and BB call

T54 flop and Willie the Asian guy leads out. This guy is rather straight forward and likes to bet when he has something and in this case he probably thinks that flop missed my hand (he hates me FYI). EP limper calls and its on me.

This seems like a good spot to peel or even raise to see what Willie is working with and see how he reacts.

Thank you in advance

PS: The only marginal(if you even want to call them that) PF plays I made were once from EP1 with 87d, #2 from above, and KJo from EP2.

ProfessorBen · #2 06-13-2007, 02:39 AM

#1: You have tons of outs to a chop for hands that are ahead of you so you absolutely have to see a river. A fold on the river is OK if she is afraid of value betting rivers and a much better read on her preflop range than what you have, which is somewhat misogynistic. Otherwise, you should be going to showdown for 1 more bet in a blind steal spot.

#2: This is a fold preflop in all but the tightest/most passive games. This hand is a perfect example for why as you're only getting action against hands that dominate you. As played, you can fold the turn because his entire range (QQ-AA, AJ+) is ahead of you. Again, the biggest mistake here is preflop.

#3: 3-bet preflop. As played, flop is fine.
As played, your read is inconsistent with your turn and river actions. If you're checking behind the turn, its because he has an overpair bigger than your every time in which you should fold the river too. If you think he can still have AK or 77-88 here, I'm bet/folding the turn and then probably checking behind A/K rivers.

#4: Raise the flop. Your read doesn't differentiate between him having a T, 5, 4, or a 87/76/86, etc.

Aces McGee · #3 06-13-2007, 10:52 AM

Hand 1 -- I don't really like your check-raise. I'd rather just go way ahead/way behind and c/c, c/c, b/f.

Once you do c/r and she three-bets and leads the turn, I think a fold is fine in a live 8/16. Online, ProfessorBen is right, you should probably show this down. But rare is the live 8/16 player who will take this line with anything less than, say, AQ. Personally, I think she has AK or better here a lot. And the best case scenario is that you are drawing for half of a relatively small pot.

Hand 2: I again don't really like your checkraise. You can probably fold this turn, too, but I won't blame you for calling down.

Hand 3: Yeah, I probably three-bet preflop. I would check behind on the turn, too, happy to get cheaply to showdown. I'm not worried about giving a free card -- there aren't too many live 8/16 players taking this line with overs -- so I don't mind the free shot at spiking my nine. I call the river because I get curious and there's always a chance he has 66-88.

Hand 4: I call and reevaluate on the turn, based on what Willie does and (especially) how the player in between reacts.

-McGee

Man of Means · #4 06-13-2007, 11:44 AM

Hand #1 you can check/call to the river (then b/f or c/c or even c/f river) if you have decided to see the flop. In a live game, I'd sometimes fold A7o-A2o here since people are generally not hip to "blind steals" and they actually openlimp on the button a lot with medium strength hands.

Hand #2 Opening ATo is somewhat laggy but I've done it under the right conditions (tight-passive table where I haven't been opening much due to crappy cards or whatever). Once you flop trips, it's hard to get away from the hand but I can't think of a hand that doesn't have you beat unless Button is a nutjob. You have outs against QQ and KK. Would he fastplay AK on the flop? Sorry, just pay off and chalk it up to metagame.

Hand #3 Bet the turn, then the river will be easier to play. Since you have the read that he doesn't v-bet much you might be able to make a fold.

Hand #4 Ugh, go ahead and raise if you think he "has a piece" and is testing you out. I hate the EP caller in between. If you see an Ace on the turn and EP likes it, get ready to bail.

B_Movie_Fan · #5 06-13-2007, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PS: The only marginal(if you even want to call them that) PF plays I made were once from EP1 with 87d, #2 from above, and KJo from EP2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure of that, as you posted 4 hands and I think 3 of them include pretty serious preflop mistakes.

Hand #1: If the lady is adjusting for position/bind steal, then you have an auto-reraise. If she isn't (which is probably the case) then you have an auto-fold preflop. Did you have any reads at all besides "she's a woman"? As you mentioned, most women are weak/passive, and she open-raised. My default is to assume she has no clue about position or blind stealing and muck preflop. As played, I fold the turn to her bet, but that might be a leak on my part because I'm a complete nit.

Hand #2: Auto-fold preflop. ATo in early position is just too vulnerable and weak. ATs is a raise, though. As played, I might call the flop and c/r the turn instead. Any reads on button? These hands are so hard to analyze without any reads at all.

Hand #3: Preflop, 3-bet>fold>call. As played, I bet the turn. As played on the turn, I definitely call the river; you just induced a bluff, so call it. You'll be good way more than 1/9 here.

Hand #4: Preflop is close between raising and limping. I prefer a limp, but I think a raise here is just fine. On the flop, which one is Willie: sb or bb? Did the sb lead and the bb fold? What's the read on ep? Is he typically loose/passive? Would he have raised or smooth-called with a ten? With no more info I like a flop raise here, as I'll just assume that they both suck, the bb folded, and we are likely to have the best hand. Alternatively, you can peel the flop, see the turn, watch their reactions, and reevaluate there. That might actually be the best line.

Aces McGee · #6 06-13-2007, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1: If the lady is adjusting for position/bind steal, then you have an auto-reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

In blind steal/defense situations, it is perfectly fine to just call A7o some of the time.

-McGee

PokerJans · #7 06-13-2007, 02:13 PM

Thanks guys

Results since I never post them:

#1 River - Ace and it goes check check and I chop with A4 WTF? White women are passive but I should donk that river...whiffed check-raise. Now that I think about it though from a value perspective its a bad time to check-raise but she checks behind a lot with all the hands I extract value from.

#2 I lose to a better hand - I want to talk more about that flop check-raise though.

#3 He sucks at value betting but he got me this time. I think I am fine with calling there though.

#4 I just folded the flop, but I think calling is much better here.

Thanks everyone

ProfessorBen · #8 06-13-2007, 10:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
White women are passive

[/ QUOTE ]

Statements like this make you bad at poker... and life.

Dan87 · #9 06-13-2007, 10:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
White women are passive

[/ QUOTE ]

Statements like this make you bad at poker... and life.

[/ QUOTE ]
question: did you watch the live feed of the WSOP ladies event final table? 10 hours of the most weak tight [censored] I have ever seen (besides duck and maybe katja)

Not saying all women are passive tight nits, but as poker is a game of incomplete information you have to go with the most likely profile.

Man of Means · #10 06-13-2007, 11:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
White women are passive

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of players are passive in teh LL live games
like 8 out of 10
and some of them are white women

small sample size; you'll probably find same % of non-noob white women are somewhat aggressive

disregard race and gender based reads, focus on things like # of tattoos/piercings, tightness of pants, how they handle money when buying chips, and how often the player is the first one to throw extra chips in the pot on a betting round.