The two-tiered Baseball Hall of Fame

[wisehandpoker]

I was having enough fun with the other thread that I felt obliged to start this one.

The baseball HoF as presently constituted bugs the crap out of me because it doesn't differentiate between the best and the best of the rest. An old buddy of mine and I had an ongoing debate about who would make the top tier of the HoF.

We eventually decided 50 was a good number for the higher tier (you could also do a third tier of the top 10 of all-time). Every time someone gets inducted to the top tier, someone needs to be dropped. None of this is ever going to happen in reality, but figuring out who your fifty are makes for some fun debate. A few notes on my selections, followed by my list:

- I didn't consider Pete Rose or Joe Jackson, not as some great moral stand, but as recognition of their bans.

- I included active players because its fun, but only those whose present credentials qualify them for the discussion. No Pujols yet.

- I included Negro leaguers. I considered Sadaharu Oh but he wasn't close to making the cut.

- Part of my equation was greatness. I don't consider Nolan Ryan one of the 50 best baseball players of all time, but I do consider him one of the greatest. Popularity matters in a Hall of Fame, or at least in my selection process.

Without further ado...

Lou Gehrig - 1B
Jimmy Foxx - 1B
Mark McGwire - 1B
Eddie Collins - 2B
Joe Morgan - 2B
Craig Biggio - 2B
Jackie Robinson - 2B
Rogers Hornsby - 2B
Mike Schmidt - 3B
George Brett - 3B
Eddie Matthews - 3B
Alex Rodriguez - SS/3B
Honus Wagner - SS
John Henry Lloyd - SS
Cal Ripkin - SS
Josh Gibson - C
Johnny Bench - C
Yogi Berra - C
Barry Bonds - OF
Ted Williams - OF
Stan Musial - OF
Rickey Henderson - OF
Carl Yazstremski - OF
Oscar Charleston - OF
Ty Cobb - OF
Mickey Mantle - OF
Willie Mays - OF
Tris Speaker - OF
Joe DiMaggio - OF
Babe Ruth - SP/OF
Hank Aaron - OF
Frank Robinson - OF
Mel Ott - OF
Turkey Stearns - OF
Roberto Clemente - OF
Cy Young - SP
Walter Johnson - SP
Christy Matthewson - SP
Grover Cleveland Alexander - SP
Lefty Grove - SP
Steve Carleton - SP
Warren Sphan - SP
Nolan Ryan - SP
Satchel Paige - SP
Randy Johnson - SP
Pedro Martinez - SP
Greg Maddux - SP
Roger Clemens - SP
Tom Seaver - SP
Bob Gibson - SP

a few of my toughest omissions: Nap Lajoie, Arky Vaughan, Harmon Killebrew, Kid Nichols

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]

The baseball HoF as presently constituted bugs the crap out of me because it doesn't differentiate between the best from the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it does. The best are in the Hall of Fame. The rest are not.

Of course, there are always debatable members and non-members.

[wisehandpoker]

sorry, that should have read 'differentiate the best from the best of the rest'

[Sooga]

McGwire among the 50 best Hall Of Famers? please... I more or less agree (or don't have any arguments with) the rest of your picks

[Jack of Arcades]

I think you *have* to increase the number of C, SS, 3B, and 1B. McGwire as #3? Try Eddie Murray. No Wade Boggs? Arky Vaughan's exclusion is criminal. How come no Roy Campanella, Mickey Cochrane, or Mike Piazza?

[wisehandpoker]

My McGwire inclusion isn't dissimilar to Jackie, Nolan or Cal's. No player in history has ever carried the game the way he did (with a little help from Sammy). Big Mac was to the '94 strike what the Babe was to the Black Sox scandal. The superstar factor is why he made my list...not that 70 hurt. I'm not as ready to write off Big Mac as most people are because I think there are a lot of celebrated cheaters in baseball and I don't know where the line is drawn other than 'banned by the commissioner's office'.

Vaughan's a tough one. The missing years hurt his cause a lot, and in the same was being a star helps, Arky's near annonymity didn't help. He was my last cut. Nap was my second to last.

Murray was consistantly strong but never transcended that, Boggs one-dimensional (these are oversimplifications, but I digress). As for the positional arguments, I don't think in a discussion like this there's neccessarily going to be a balance. Simple fact is there have been more great centerfielders than players at those positions, so I chose more centerfielders. That's what works for me, and 'works for me' is always going to be a factor.

Of your catchers, Piazza is the closest to my list. I love the histories on Cochrane and Campy and their career-ending injuries were unfortunate, but as with Arky, I personally can't view lost seasons as anything but lost seasons.

G

[Paluka]

Doesn't the Sports Guy have a big article somewhere about the 9 tier HOF?

[Roybert]

This is an interesting list.

Just curious, but who do you have as the bottom 5 or 10 (those currently in but on the bubble when the next 'induction' is made).

[LBJ]

I don't mean to start a debate (well, maybe I do) but how is Craig Biggio in there above Roberto Alomar. Both play 2B. Let's look at the stats.

Robbie has played about 180 less games (1 less total season).

Roberto Alomar has a higher:
Batting Average
Slugging Percentage
On-Base Percentage
RBI
Triples
Stolen Bases
Less strikeouts

In 800 less at bats, Alomar only has 180 less runs, 70 less hits, and 70 less walks.

No one can argue that Robbie played better D, since his defense is one of the best ever. Did you consider Alomar over Biggio? I think you should.

[Jack of Arcades]

well Robby played in the AL and Biggio played much of his time in an extreme pitcher's park fwiw.