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#1
10-10-2006, 01:15 AM
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problems with aces stud high
I have been a lurker here for a little while, and was hoping to get some comments on some hands I played in a tournament recently. I was one of the chip leaders and then the wheels kind of fell of. These are a couple of hands that I started with aces and wanted some critique on. Thank you
Tournament - 7 Card Stud High - Level V (80/160), Ante 16, Bring-In 24 (converter) Seat 1: 1,002 Seat 2: 882 Seat 3: 4,449 Seat 4: 2,049 Seat 6: 3,069 Seat 7: 1,051 Hero: 5,042 3rd Street - (1.40 SB) Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls Vil 6: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises 4th Street - (4.70 SB) Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds Vil 6: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets 5th Street - (3.35 BB) Vil 6: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets 6th Street - (5.35 BB) Vil 6: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls River - (9.35 BB) Vil 6: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls Total pot: (11.35 BB) Results (in white):<font color="white"> Total pot 1816 Vil 6: [9h 6d 9d 7h 8h Td 6s] (a straight, Six to Ten) </font> Tournament - 7 Card Stud High - Level VI (100/200), Ante 20, Bring-In 30 (converter) Seat 1: 1,336 Seat 2: 1,653 Seat 4: 1,873 Seat 5: 4,743 Seat 6: 4,989 Seat 7: 5,356 Hero: 2,506 3rd Street - (1.40 SB) Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___folds Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises 4th Street - (5.00 SB) Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets 5th Street - (4.00 BB) Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets 6th Street - (7.00 BB) Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds River - (9.00 BB) Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks___folds Total pot: (9.00 BB) Results (in white):<font color="white"> Total pot 1800 </font> Tournament - 7 Card Stud High - Level VII (150/300), Ante 30, Bring-In 45 (converter) Seat 1: 6,027 Seat 2: 1,218 Seat 4: 1,843 Seat 5: 3,478 Seat 6: 7,679 Seat 7: 5,316 Hero: 2,097 3rd Street - (1.40 SB) Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds Vil 4: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises 4th Street - (3.40 SB) Vil 4: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets 5th Street - (2.70 BB) Vil 4: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises 6th Street - (6.70 BB) Vil 4: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises River - (10.70 BB) Vil 4: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___raises 13 to 313 and is all-in Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls Total pot: (12.79 BB) Results (in white):<font color="white"> Total pot 3836 Vil 4: [9d 5d 3d Qs 3h 9s Tc] (two pair, Nines and Threes) Hero: [Ad 5h Ac Qc 8h 4h 7h] (a pair of Aces) </font> 
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#2
10-10-2006, 01:50 AM
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Re: problems with aces stud high
Don't show villain hole cards if you want good advice. Seriously.
1st hand: I would not bet on 6th, since the villain will almost certainly bet if you check to him. An argument might be made for betting and folding to a raise, but you're spewing if you bet/call a raise here. Easy call on the river if you make it there w/o a raise. You probably have to call anyway, people can't resist bluffing with a 4 straight or 4 flush board. 2nd hand: I wouldn't overcall on 6th either, but I'm open to criticism on that. 3rd hand: Raising on 5th is a little overagro, but might be ok. 6th you're probably screwed because you're both almost all in, but I can see why you'd raise to get your chips in even if you knew he had two pair. I'm no expert at stud high tournaments (or stud for that matter), so my suggestions are probably geared more towards cash games. Take em with a grain of salt.
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#4
10-10-2006, 11:21 AM
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Re: problems with aces stud high
When you have players that will continue on with hands like:
5th Street - (2.70 BB) Vil 4: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls against an obvious AxA or a concealed pair with an A kicker (either way I don't know how you could have announced it better than you did), these are the kind of players you want in your game. It's just bad luck that your A's didn't improve. That's stud my friend. When this happens, it's critical that you keep your head focused on the game and take a note that the Vil "attempted to represent trips on 5th while only having a small exposed pair". All too often, we want to throw a fit and forget to take care of business. dandy
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#5
10-10-2006, 11:27 AM
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Re: problems with aces stud high
Let me attempt to provide you with some advice that pertains especially to the first two hands and especially in tournament situations.
In each of these hands you were the last person to act on 3rd street. You already had the BI plus two callers and the BI plus three callers, respectively, in front of you. I find that raising in this position is just not worth anything. Usually at best, you will just get the BI to fold by raising. IMO, for this reason there is too little value in raising against this many opponents because you're not going to effectively thin the field. (OTOH, raising with a big split pair on third when you are last to act is a good move when you only have the BI and one caller in the hand.) I think you're better off just calling in these situations, then reading the board on 4th street to decide what to do. Saving these chips in tournaments by not raising is especially important when you're getting short or in later stages when the bets are big relative to your stack size, e.g., in your second hand. Also, using this tactic in cash games works because by not raising third street you make the opponents less pot-committed when you come out firing on 4th street. I find that they are actually more likely to fold on 4th street when you call 3rd and bet-out on 4th with an Ace door card than they would if you raise on 3rd.
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#6
10-10-2006, 02:26 PM
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Re: problems with aces stud high
[ QUOTE ]
Let me attempt to provide you with some advice that pertains especially to the first two hands and especially in tournament situations. In each of these hands you were the last person to act on 3rd street. You already had the BI plus two callers and the BI plus three callers, respectively, in front of you. I find that raising in this position is just not worth anything. Usually at best, you will just get the BI to fold by raising. IMO, for this reason there is too little value in raising against this many opponents because you're not going to effectively thin the field. (OTOH, raising with a big split pair on third when you are last to act is a good move when you only have the BI and one caller in the hand.) I think you're better off just calling in these situations, then reading the board on 4th street to decide what to do. Saving these chips in tournaments by not raising is especially important when you're getting short or in later stages when the bets are big relative to your stack size, e.g., in your second hand. Also, using this tactic in cash games works because by not raising third street you make the opponents less pot-committed when you come out firing on 4th street. I find that they are actually more likely to fold on 4th street when you call 3rd and bet-out on 4th with an Ace door card than they would if you raise on 3rd. [/ QUOTE ] Ignore this post.
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#8
10-10-2006, 06:59 PM
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Re: problems with aces stud high
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Ignore this post. [/ QUOTE ] LOL. This might be excellent advice IF you would explain to all of us why ignoring my post is EV+. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry, you're right, my bad. I was just feeling lazy, which is why I didn't elaborate. But I should have. Here goes. Hand 1 should be raised on third street simply because of your equity edge. You have live aces with a live straight flush kicker. Since diamonds are so dead, if your opponents have three flushes, they are in bad shape. If they have pairs lower than aces they are also in bad shape. Raising also prevents the BI from getting a free card. Hand 2 is closer due to the dead ace, but I still think it is a pretty easy raise. Again you live a live straight flush kicker, you have aces (I stress this because with kings I think limping would be the play), you have the opportunity to knock out the BI (and as it turned out, one of the limpers), and the other ace limped into the pot. This is significant both because it means he almost certainly doesn't have the other ace buried, and his hand is very dead, so you have a huge equity edge on him. Had he folded it would be a closer decision. Hand 3 is an easy raise for obvious reasons I should think. I think his play on third street is fine. It's the later streets that need fixin'. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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#10
10-10-2006, 10:42 PM
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Re: problems with aces stud high
I can see just calling with the aces when 3 people limp and you have a dead ace. Particularly in a tournament. You'd really like to get it headsup on 4th with a raise or checkraise. Sometimes you even luck into both getting it headsup AND getting way too much action from someone who can't possibly believe you could have limped with aces, especially given another ace out. It might depend on opponents, I would definitely sometimes just go ahead and raise.
The other two are clear raises period.
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