6.50 QJs bubble w/2 short stacks

[Guthrie]

This won't even compute in SNGPT, and I don't think it's an ICM problem anyway. This situation comes up fairly often and everyone seems to play it the same, but occasionally someone does what I consider very stupid in this situation. However, there was a post here sometime ago about how this might actually be the correct play (by the villain).

I only have about 100 hands on villain, all in the same set. He's about 9% vpip, and seems to be playing a very good push/fold game late. In this game I've been folding junk utg and letting him attack the short stacks. I pushed once utg with AQs when the shorties weren't quite so short, he folded, and so did the shorties.

With QJs I want to play with the two short stacks, but not a bigger stack. I don't want to push PF, because if villain calls, I'm almost certainly way behind, but I do want to get in against one or both of the short stacks.

Ordinarily, villain would recognize what I'm doing and 1) fold junk, 2) limp a decent hand then check it down, or 3) push a monster to get HU with the short stack.

So I limp, and villain pushes. I put him on a monster and fold. He turns over 64o. WTF?

Can this possibly be correct play on his part? Should I have limped, raised, pushed, or just folded PF?

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t400 with t25 antes (4 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

Hero (t4865)
Button (t7390)
SB (t275)
BB (t970)

Preflop: Hero is in CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero calls t400, <font color="red">Button raises to t7365 (All-in)</font>, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, BB calls t545 (All-in), <font color="gray">Hero folds</font>

[Pudge714]

Guthrie,
This is the easiest shove ATC ever by the villain he knows you will pretty much always fold and he is getting sickoverlay and he is has some FE

[misclick odds]

i actually was villain in this hand, and its a pretty standard ATC spot. kinda surreal seein it from the other side tho...

a few things i wante dto point out though

1. if youre shoving, im not exactly calling wide since you have a stack that can hurt me with two extreme shortys there. if youre going to play you should shove, cause im not calling much, and even if you double one of them up, youre still a solid 2nd with the other guy very crippled. or you take down 700 chips w/o showdown. limping like you did is very exploitable, and allows me to shove any 2 knowing you cant call. if both shorties had folded, calling aces was -$EV. but one came in so you had a bit of a looser callign range, but still very tight. i dont have any of those SnG progs though so i couldnt say exactly.

2. if i recall, you called me an idiot right after this hand ended. you shouldnt be doing that, if not to not tap the tank.

3. its not exactly on my mind but its there, i dont mind keeping the bubble going. people were folding to my shoves and letting me accum pretty easily, even if doubled one of them, i can get the chips back in 2 hands at the most.

[Guthrie]

This makes absolutely no sense to me. What could you possibly expect to gain?

If I fold to your push, then you'll be HU with a hand that almost certainly has you dominated. You figure to lose the hand, and by pushing me out, give the BB even more chips, rather than folding and allowing a strong hand a better chance to take him out.

But since people seem to agree this is the correct play, then in the future, in the same situation, definitely push again, because I'll be limp/trapping with monsters.

[ger664]

Its probably only correct to Limp trap with AA here. Anything else would be -$EV if both Blinds fold out after BS shoves.

[misclick odds]

[ QUOTE ]
This makes absolutely no sense to me. What could you possibly expect to gain?

If I fold to your push, then you'll be HU with a hand that almost certainly has you dominated. You figure to lose the hand, and by pushing me out, give the BB even more chips, rather than folding and allowing a strong hand a better chance to take him out.

But since people seem to agree this is the correct play, then in the future, in the same situation, definitely push again, because I'll be limp/trapping with monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you notice, i have 7k chips. the most i can lose is 1k (since you should be folding everything except AA, and a player calls and doubles)...or if you want, a 1-2% chance i lose 4300, which shouldnt happen, or i can gain 1100 when they all fold wanting you to call and bubble, or i win ~2k when i knock out a shorty. or the .5% chance i get your stack.

you have to realize ICM. the goal of SnGs is to not bubble, and you need to give yourself the least chance to bubble while giving others opportunities to bubble. you limp the 400, and i shove knowing you cant call. the SB folded leaving 50 chips behind. third has 545 chips after posting the blind. you have 4000. thats an almost guarenteed second, and its in your best interest to make it there. about the trapping with monsters, calling with kings is -$EV if they both fold. but since one of them called (usually not a great call, but hes shown to not understand SnG strat multiple times), you can call looser, but not by much. i could run it if i had SnGPT, but ive been on a downswing lately so i cant buy it...

[Eagles]

[ QUOTE ]
This makes absolutely no sense to me. What could you possibly expect to gain?

If I fold to your push, then you'll be HU with a hand that almost certainly has you dominated. You figure to lose the hand, and by pushing me out, give the BB even more chips, rather than folding and allowing a strong hand a better chance to take him out.

But since people seem to agree this is the correct play, then in the future, in the same situation, definitely push again, because I'll be limp/trapping with monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is so much overlay it doesn't matter you are dominated. You should probably fold AA here if the BB folds.